The Real Reason.

[AAmech]

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On 4/10/2003 3:33:11 PM RV4 wrote:


KCFlyer,

 Do not mistake my dislike for the current situation as being against ANY situation.

Try SMALLER without Bankruptcy with less cuts in pay/benefits with a shorter length until we neogotiate.

If it is going to be Carty''s way or the highway, your fears will be realized right along with mine.

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How do you get out of all your leases for planes, gates,and equipment without BK? Plus the contracts for services at stations which will now be eliminated or reduced services. You just can''t walk away from them. If it was that easy they would have done it already.

Unfortunatly for us, it is Carty''s way or the Highway. He pretty much holds all the cards in this situation. If this language dispute prevents us getting a TA to vote on in BK we will undoubtably be presented with a much worse one. And if we vote down this TA, Carty will have met the requirements of BK law and will file the motion to DISMISS our contract! Goodbye pension, seniority, bumprights, payscales ect,ect, ect. There''s no Judge Judy to plead our case to. No one cares. Thats just the way it is.

 

[AAviator]

Bob, keep up the good work. With sabre rattleing like that, your probably converting lots of no votes to yes.

Did you really say this?

"Oh really? So is "my way or the highway" the new definition of "good faith" negotiations? You are lieing. Read the law. After he declares BK then he negotiates with the union.

(with the DIP list of demands)

If he makes unrealistic demands we have "good cause". (strike, yea that''ll show ''em)"

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 4/10/2003 5:52:41 PM AAmech wrote:

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How do you get out of all your leases for planes, gates,and equipment without BK? Plus the contracts for services at stations which will now be eliminated or reduced services. You just can't walk away from them. If it was that easy they would have done it already.

Unfortunatly for us, it is Carty's way or the Highway. He pretty much holds all the cards in this situation. If this language dispute prevents us getting a TA to vote on in BK we will undoubtably be presented with a much worse one. And if we vote down this TA, Carty will have met the requirements of BK law and will file the motion to DISMISS our contract! Goodbye pension, seniority, bumprights, payscales ect,ect, ect. There's no Judge Judy to plead our case to. No one cares. Thats just the way it is.

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Oh really? So is "my way or the highway" the new definition of "good faith" negotiations? You are lieing. Read the law. After he declares BK then he negotiates with the union. If he makes unrealistic demands we have "good cause". If AA is losing $5million a day and he expects labor to foot the entire burden then its not "fair and equitable". If by some chance the judge does abrogate the contract, which is unlikely with these terms, the company still has to negotiate with the union while the judge may impose temporary terms. There are 9 tests that must be met before the contract is abrogated. He already failed two.
At present, Carty expects labor to foot the entire amount that is required to make the company solvent. This means that the company will still be getting new airplanes, building new terminals, paying exhorbitant executive salaries, leasing cars, sports arenas, movie theaters etc. All the other creditors get off scott free. In Bankruptcy, they normally get hit first. Only a moron would vote to give money that rightly should be theirs to rich companies and executives especially when it looks like we are going BK anyway.

 

[AAmech]

By the way RV4, If I hav''nt made myself clear already. I ADVOCATE A YES VOTE!!!!! And I encorage all my fellow AMT''s to do the same. As the pilots union lawyer said, "Bankrupcy and the accompaning 1113 filing is the Hell you do not want to decend into"!

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

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On 4/10/2003 6:36:10 PM AAmech wrote:

What I''ve read is what we are going thru now IS the negotiation required by BK law. Say what you want about the TWU, but the pilots union sure worked furiously to come up with their TA!

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I''ve read likewise. Pre-filing negotiations and actions such as allowing the unions access to financials are specifically quoted in UAL''s S.1113© filing.

Very good point about the APA. In Ch.11, it could be argued that the company and the APA have negotiated for over two years without coming to an agreement.

 

[AV8NSIGO]

eoleson,

I don''t see the concern about competitors seeing the AA business plan...there isn''t one!

I say this because there doesn''t seem to be a coherent business plan for U, UAL, DAL, NWA, etc. Attempting to be everything to every potential traveler isn''t a business plan. There is nothing of huge significance which diferentiates AA, UAL, DAL, etc. Southwest and jetBlue seem to have a plan and they stick to it.

You, and some others, have accurately pointed out that BK requires approval for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!! That, in large part, is why companies want to emerge from BK so rapidly.

Although I''m no longer at AA, I watch this closely because of my friends and former co-workers who remain there. I''m certain that my carrier (Comair, as part of DAL) will be close behind. Given a choice of my company retaining flexibility outside of BK vs. running to the BK judge for permission to do anything short of sneezing, I''ll take my chances with a concessionary contract.

Good luck to all...you''re in my prayers!

 

[xlurker]

To address the thread topic:

Imagine that. The language was still in work. Not the actual concessions. I can remember someone saying that about a week ago and several of you regulars jumping right in to say that was positively wrong. The TWU put out a bulletin the this effect. Everyone is wrong but you guys?

Addressing a post early in this thread. When has anyone said labor is the problem with the airlines financial situation? I'm still amazed at how many airlines were mismanaged at the exact same time. Must be a conspiracy to topple unions.

Get a grip people.

 

[DLFlyer31]

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On 4/10/2003 5:59:59 PM Bob Owens wrote:

At present, Carty expects labor to foot the entire amount that is required to make the company solvent.
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Last I saw, Carty wanted a total of 4.0 billion in cuts. 1.8 billion was supposed to come from labor and the other 2.2 billion comes from a variety of things (renegotiating leases, vendor contracts, depeaking hubs,etc).​

 

[bagsmasher]

Hopeful writes:
"How much would you be willing to bet that when AA gets its costs lowered to JetBlue''s and Southwest''s by cutting our wages and benefits. Executive Compensation will remain at the High Cost airline levels.

Do you realize the pain and suffering AA has to inflict on its employees to get its costs to the levels of those airlines you mentioned?"



It would be impossible for AA to get it''s costs as low as Southwest''s and JetBlue''s. They have an entirely different business model that we cannot match. AA has 7 different fleet types to serve their diverse markets. AA''s model is based upon charging 30% more than the LCC''s, and then screwing their best customers every chance they get.

Loook at USAir. Through bankruptcy, they have reduced their costs to 10.5 cents per mile. That is still 30% higher than Southwest''s.

I''m sure there will be ups and downs over the coming years, but in the end, the old-line airlines will disappear one by one.

 

[AAmech]

Actually Southwest DOES do some of their own heavy maint. In Dallas they have recently expanded their hangers(again) to do phased "D" checks and in Phoenix I think they do C's. Not sure what they do at Houston Hobby. They do not have any Engine or Landing Gear overhaul or much in the way of backshops. I think Southwest does more heavy maint than Continental which closed its maint bases in the early 90's.

But your sure right about one thing. No matter what cuts we end up with, we'll be lightyears ahead of these 3rd party "chop shops" like Goodrich, Timco and Dalfort.

 

[xlurker]

Pain and suffering to AA employees to get costs down to Southwest.

Southwest does not do their own maintenance. They do not own maintenance bases etc. How many times does someone have to be told this before they catch on?

I bet with concessions you would make a lot more than the people that are doing the maintenance for Southwest.