Are We Next?

[Hackman]

You are [deleted] clueless.

[post="263775"][/post]​

Yeah? How so company bootlicker? You mean the fact that the elite top 5% of this country own 70% to 80% of the wealth? Do you refute that there are 44 million people that can't afford health insurance? How about desparity of wages? The fact that the average CEO total compensation in the US was $9.84 million in 2004?

Give us some facts on how working people are not suffering in the country?

I'll bet you can't.

Keep on the bosses good side boolicker, and you'll get up there with the elite some day..... :huh: :huh:

 

[Hackman]

Good Ole boy airline club alive and well....

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05110/490998.stm

 

[eolesen]

If your pension is over the PBGC max for your age, you lose. Check their site for a clue. Do you know any US Air pilots?

No, you -may- lose. You might also be made whole if the plan isn't grossy underfunded:

Question: Is it ever possible to receive more than the amount guaranteed by PBGC?

Yes. If your plan has enough assets, you may receive more than the amount guaranteed by PBGC. When PBGC takes over a pension plan, we pay the greater of the amount that we guarantee and the amount that was covered by your plan's assets when it terminated.

To determine the amount of benefits covered by plan assets, PBGC must follow an order of "priority categories" established by law. PBGC first allocates plan assets to benefits derived from employee contributions, and then to certain benefits payable to participants who retired or were eligible to retire more than three years before the plan terminated. Next, PBGC allocates plan assets to guaranteed benefits. Finally, the last two priority categories cover the remaining nonguaranteed benefits under the plan.

UAL and USAir's plans are/were grossly underfunded. Last I heard, AA's plans were still on track to being 90-95% funded by the end of the year, which is a far cry from where UAL's plans ended up at.

You can piss and moan about management, pay cuts and reduced benefits, but AMR has been the only network carrier who has actually been responsible where retirement funding is concerned. AA put about $130M into pension plans during 1Q. Had we simply held onto the cash (which other carriers did), we'd have only posted a $60M loss instead of a $192M loss.

 

[Bob Owens]

Last I heard, AA's plans were still on track to being 90-95% funded by the end of the year, which is a far cry from where UAL's plans ended up at.

[post="264207"][/post]​

So in other words the clip you put from the PBGC does not apply. AAs plan is still underfunded.

Had we simply held onto the cash (which other carriers did), we'd have only posted a $60M loss instead of a $192M loss.

Losses that will no doubt be cited as the company requests more concessions next year.

So tell us how much they have spent on new aircraft over the last couple of years. Lets not forget all the terminal construction either. Maybe if they had not taken on new aircraft or built all these new terminals they could have funded the pensions and shown a profit?

The fact is that even as the company continues to squeeze the employees they are still pissing money away in other places.

According to AA the company contributed around $1700 to my pension last year. A mechanic with the same seniority at SWA with a 3% match would have recieved $2300 from the company into his 401K. Plus an additional $20,000 a year in salary.

So if the SWA employee put in the max of 20%, $15,400, plus the companies $2300 his pension fund would increase by $17,700 a year, and without working overtime or holidays he would still have an extra couple of grand a year to spend while working.

Hmm, wouldnt we as workers be better off if SWA continued to grow and take customers away from AA and then get a job with SWA instead of taking paycuts in order to help the company underfund our shrinking pension?

 

[eolesen]

According to AA the company contributed around $1700 to my pension last year. A mechanic with the same seniority at SWA with a 3% match would have recieved $2300 from the company into his 401K. Plus an additional $20,000 a year in salary.

You, thru your union, opted to keep the pension vs. going to a 401K.

So if the SWA employee put in the max of 20%, $15,400, plus the companies $2300 his pension fund would increase by $17,700 a year, and without working overtime or holidays he would still have an extra couple of grand a year to spend while working.

Nothing stops you from putting in the max into a 401K, Bob. So unless you're already doing that, it's a worthless comparison.

Hmm, wouldnt we as workers be better off if SWA continued to grow and take customers away from AA and then get a job with SWA instead of taking paycuts in order to help the company underfund our shrinking pension?

[post="264336"][/post]​

Why not go work for Southwest right now, Bob?

 

[AMFAMAN]

See what happens when the health plan costs you more money, some people can't afford their prescriptions...i.e Oneflyer

 

[Borescope]

Had we simply held onto the cash (which other carriers did), we'd have only posted a $60M loss instead of a $192M loss.

[post="264207"][/post]​

But you didn't so the loss is $192M

 

[eolesen]

And you (and your pension) are that much better off for it whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[Busdrvr]

No, you -may- lose. You might also be made whole if the plan isn't grossy underfunded:
UAL and USAir's plans are/were grossly underfunded. Last I heard, AA's plans were still on track to being 90-95% funded by the end of the year, which is a far cry from where UAL's plans ended up at.

You can piss and moan about management, pay cuts and reduced benefits, but AMR has been the only network carrier who has actually been responsible where retirement funding is concerned. AA put about $130M into pension plans during 1Q. Had we simply held onto the cash (which other carriers did), we'd have only posted a $60M loss instead of a $192M loss.

[post="264207"][/post]​

Not true. you are confused about what shows up on the cash flow statement and the income statement. Any bill, paid or not, shows up on the income statement. IOW, if you "owe" your pension fund money, and chose not to transfer the cash, it is still an expense. The Cash flow statement will however reflect that although you owe the pension fund money, money didn't go there.

 

[Bob Owens]

You, thru your union, opted to keep the pension vs. going to a 401K.
Nothing stops you from putting in the max into a 401K, Bob. So unless you're already doing that, it's a worthless comparison.
Why not go work for Southwest right now, Bob?

[post="264416"][/post]​

[/quote

Nothing stops me? Obviously you have a different reality than most other people. I cant put in the max after taking a $25000 pay cut. The kids would like to eat and sleep with a roof over their heads.

Worthless comparasion? How much will the company match? The fact is that SWA contributes more than AA does per employee to their retirement.


Go to SWA? Well if they put maintenance in New York I would not hesitate to apply.Besides, you were the one that started with the comparisions. So when someone brings up one thats not favorable to your arguement you say "Why dont you (throw your twenty years out the window) and go work for them? I guess thats why you are a "former" moderator.

 

[FWAAA]

Nothing stops me? Obviously you have a different reality than most other people. I cant put in the max after taking a $25000 pay cut. The kids would like to eat and sleep with a roof over their heads.

Worthless comparasion? How much will the company match? The fact is that SWA contributes more than AA does per employee to their retirement.

[post="264689"][/post]​

How does the WN mechanic contribute the max to his 401k? Wouldn't his wife and kids like to eat and stay warm and dry, also?

If he can, then you can, too. Stop moving the goalposts within the same thread, please.

I thought your pay cut was $20k. Now you say it's $25k? Which is it?

As to the bolded portion: That's exactly why AA is in no hurry to terminate its pensions; as you astutely point out, WN spends more on its employees' retirement than does AMR. I've posted it dozens of times, and it's good to see you agree.

Let's hope that AA eventually recovers so that AMR's mechanics can once again earn industry-leading pay instead of "trying to avoid bankruptcy" pay. B)

 

[Hackman]

How does the WN mechanic contribute the max to his 401k? Wouldn't his wife and kids like to eat and stay warm and dry, also?

If he can, then you can, too. Stop moving the goalposts within the same thread, please.

I thought your pay cut was $20k. Now you say it's $25k? Which is it?

As to the bolded portion: That's exactly why AA is in no hurry to terminate its pensions; as you astutely point out, WN spends more on its employees' retirement than does AMR. I've posted it dozens of times, and it's good to see you agree.

Let's hope that AA eventually recovers so that AMR's mechanics can once again earn industry-leading pay instead of "trying to avoid bankruptcy" pay. B)

[post="264691"][/post]​

We've never had "industry leading pay" at AA with all the givebacks.... prefunding, flex benefits etc. When you add up the total concessions in dollars, it amounts to around $25,000 to $27,000 demending on seniority and other factors.

Many senior SWA mechanics will be or are millionaires when they retire. Most AA mechanics will never be able to retire, especially on the line stations and high cost cities. :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

 

[peasant]

"Many senior SWA mechanics will be or are millionaires when they retire. Most AA mechanics will never be able to retire, especially on the line stations and high cost cities"

Seriously, if that is the reality you are facing, run, don't walk to SWA. Or maybe work for a strong foreign airline as a local mechanic in US (LH/ CX/ AF etc) I think they mostly have 401K plans for US staff

 

[FWAAA]

$25k to $27k? The value of these concessions continues to grow.

Funny how in 2003, the concessions cost each topped out mechanic $16,700 annually and now, all of a sudden, the concessions are costing $25k per year. Next year, I suspect the number will be $30k or $40k.

This concessionary deal will cost us over $100,000 in 6 years. By contrast a top paid mechanic lost $150,000 from the period of 1978 to 2001, a period of 23 years. We will be losing $16,700 per year under this agreement vs. an average of $6500 before. This is more than double of what was lost in any other concessionary period. We will be the biggest sellouts of ALL time.
Right now we have coworkers over in Iraq fighting for our way of life. When they come back to a $16700 dollar a year paycut how will anybody be able to even look these guys in the eye? They certainly will not be returning to their way of life and we didnt even put up a fight.

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4538

 

[peasant]

That's about right - if you assume that AA would have given about 5000USD in payrises a year, then the 16,700 of concessions plus the foregone payrises is now 25-27k of what "it should have been".