Are We Next?

[flydcoop]

Hey Hackman, I'll be blunt too. Go #### yourself. I'll stop by the unemployment line someday to check on you and the rest of your union dumbasses.

[post="262799"][/post]​

Oneflyer,

That is a rather strong post.

Whether you like it or not, I have protections beyond those in management.

I've already lost one friend to RIF because she was in MGMT. She should have been in decision-making positions because she was BRILLIANT.

She understood this industry inside and out, yet she was RIFfed for political reasons.

This is why I do not trust AA management, yourself included.

I predict "Hackman" will be back at work before you will, should you be RIFfed.

We have recall rights, management does not...but you have to know that.

Coop

SLT

 

[AA80Driver]

Well, lets see, its the general concensous of pretty much everyone in the entire world and studies done by AA, SWA, and third-parties.

[post="262770"][/post]​

Have you actually ever looked at one of SWA's working agreements? I think you'd be surprised. They have an outstanding culture and an effiecient airline, but for the most part their contracts are pretty lucrative for labor.

 

[FWAAA]

That's about right - if you assume that AA would have given about 5000USD in payrises a year, then the 16,700 of concessions plus the foregone payrises is now 25-27k of what "it should have been".

[post="264722"][/post]​

That's quite an outlandish assumption, is it not?

After all, having given concessions to AA for over 20 years (according to Bob Owens), how do you suddenly assume that the AMTs would receive massive raises during 2003-2008?

Any other AMTs at any other airlines getting raises of $5k per year over the same period?

 

[eolesen]

I guess thats why you are a "former" moderator.

[post="264689"][/post]​

That's the best you can come up with?....

I'm a former moderator because A) I'd rather be arguing with you than having to remain neutral, B) it isn't worth my time to play babysitter, which is what the moderator does, and C) if I did go back to moderating, I'll do it in a place where people don't hide behind screen names because others make repeated feeble attempts to report other employees to HR or the union under the guise of harassment.

Back to 401K's.... Nothing prevents you from putting in the max to a 401K, aside from your own circumstances. What you've accumulated as responsibilities (wife, kids, debts) is your doing, not the company's.

It hurts to put in the x% that I do contribute (without a match), but I also know that if we don't do it, the ramifications are a lot worse in 20 years. To keep doing that, I've had to do stuff like hold down a part time job at Home Depot to make ends meet, so don't give me any crap about what it takes to keep a wife and three kids fed, clothed, insured and under a roof. I do it now on one income, which is about 45% lower than what our combined income was before the 2003 paycuts and my wife's job being eliminated from AA in 2002.

That's why I don't get why you and others waste so much of your time and energy bitching about the situation we're all in. It probably won't make you feel any better, and it certainly isn't going to magically increase the size of your paycheck or your bank balance.

If things are indeed so horrible, it's time to move on.

If you can't make ends meet, it's also time to move on.

 

[scorpion]

Back to 401K's.... Nothing prevents you from putting in the max to a 401K, aside from your own circumstances. What you've accumulated as responsibilities (wife, kids, debts) is your doing, not the company's.

Bob made a simple point and it went over your head. The point was that if a SW mechanic maxed out his 401 he would still be a few thousand bucks ahead of an AA mechanic who didn't put anything in his 401.

 

[Boomer]

Question(s) to those that may know:

1) What is the percentage matching for the 401(k) now offered by AA?

2) Given a hypothetical employee grossing 50k/yr base, that puts 10k/yr into the 401(k), how much would the % match from above amount to?


I don't know the answers to the above but in talking with others at work, much of the fear in freezing the pension is based on not understanding what would follow and how it would affect them individually.

 

[Connected1]

Question(s) to those that may know:

1) What is the percentage matching for the 401(k) now offered by AA?

2) Given a hypothetical employee grossing 50k/yr base, that puts 10k/yr into the 401(k), how much would the % match from above amount to?

[post="264954"][/post]​

I believe the number is 5.5%. So if you put in $10,000 the company will put in its maximum match of $2,750.

 

[Bob Owens]

I believe the number is 5.5%. So if you put in $10,000 the company will put in its maximum match of $2,750.

[post="264958"][/post]​

Thats why the pay cuts are a double bonus. Cut the pay so much that they cant afford to contribute then they save because they dont have to match.

If they had a match I would find a way to make sure I got every penny of match that I could but there are plenty of others who are in worse shape than I, and thats where this plan is diabolical, those who need the help the most get screwed the most.

 

[AAquila]

CHICAGO (May 11) - United Airlines gained a significant financial victory with court approval to dump its four pension plans but faces a tough challenge to win back the support of angry employees.

While smoothing the path toward a targeted exit from Chapter 11 bankruptcy later this year, Tuesday's ruling in U.S. Bankruptcy Court inflamed United's unions, with some hinting at the possibility of strikes or other disruptive actions.

It also prompted a renewed warning from some members of Congress that taxpayers may someday have to bail out the deficit-riddled government pension agency, which now will assume an additional $5 billion in pension obligations from United.

''Taxpayers had better buckle up because we will be in for a bumpy ride of bailout after bailout, as more and more corporations dump their pension plan obligations on the PBGC,'' said U.S. Rep. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill., referring to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. that already is operating at a more than $23 billion deficit.

The pensions cover 120,000 current and retired United workers, including 62,000 active employees.

The agreement approved by Judge Eugene Wedoff would give the PBGC $1.5 billion in notes and convertible stock in a reorganized UAL Corp., United's holding company. The agency, which called the agreement a ''matter of last resort,'' must still formally sign off on the termination before it takes effect.

United was headed back to court Wednesday to take up another sensitive matter: The proposed overhauling of collective bargaining agreements.

Wedoff approved the pension plan over the objections of several unions, noting that the federal pension system preserves the majority of benefits for employees at troubled companies. He called it ''the least bad'' of the available choices, since it gives unprofitable United the best chance to keep functioning.

United's chief financial officer, Jake Brace, said the verdict was important but acknowledged it was ''not a joyous day'' for the Elk Grove Village, Ill.-based airline.

''Approval of the PBGC settlement agreement is a crucial step forward for the future of United, as it strengthens the financial platform this company needs to attract exit financing and compete effectively,'' the airline said in a statement released afterward. ''At the same time, we clearly recognize that the court's decision is difficult for our retirees and our employees, who have been doing extraordinary work throughout this restructuring process.''

Unions denounced the ruling.

''Today's decision is tragic and financially destructive for many of the 10,000 current IAM retirees who will see their monthly checks reduced because (CEO) Glenn Tilton broke the promise United Airlines made to them,'' said Randy Canale, president of District 141 of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, which represents United ground workers. ''Future retirees can expect to see their benefits cut by up to 27 percent.''

The Association of Flight Attendants, which threatened unspecified labor actions if the pensions were struck, will meet to decide its next step, said spokeswoman Dianne Tamuk.

''We feel sold out,'' by the action, she said. Tamuk, 49, said her pension will be reduced from $1,700 a month to $800 a month by Wedoff's ruling.

The flight attendants are considering their legal options regarding an appeal, said AFA spokeswoman Sara Nelson Dela Cruz.

She declined to respond directly when asked if the flight attendants would follow through with their labor threats.

''We're going to look to replace this management team with a team that can lead our airline out of bankruptcy,'' she said. ''Either they go, or we go.''

United's effort to dump its pensions has been watched closely by the rest of the airline industry, where record fuel costs, the lowest fares since the early 1990s and stiff competition have caused network carriers to lose billions of dollars. Tuesday's ruling, following a step taken successfully by US Airways Group Inc. in February, clears the way for similar actions elsewhere.

United's biggest competitors would be under the most pressure to follow suit. American Airlines, the largest U.S. carrier and a unit of AMR Corp., has said it will keep its pension plans but is concerned about No. 2 United gaining a financial advantage with the elimination of its pensions.

On Wednesday, flight attendants for American will gather in Washington to lobby for federal pension reform that would allow carriers to extend the amount of time they have to replenish underfunded plans and provide relief to airlines that seek, through collective bargaining, to preserve rather than terminate their pension obligations.

 

[Hopeful]

Top Of The News
The End Of Pensions
Dan Ackman, 05.11.05, 8:35 AM ET



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NEW YORK - In the future, will any company offer a pension? The answer is probably not, and the future is getting closer all the time.

Yesterday a U.S. federal bankruptcy judge approved a plan by UAL (otc: UALAQ - news - people ), the parent company of United Airlines, to transfer its pension plans, which are underfunded by $9.8 billion, to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., which is itself underfunded.

UAL's move is expected to spur similar actions by other so-called legacy carriers among the airlines, which are squeezed by high costs, competition from airlines without substantial pension obligations and, lately, by rising fuel costs.

More broadly, UAL's action takes place against a looming retirement crisis in which the relatively benign problems of the Social Security system are just a part (see "Retirement Doomsday").

The decline of pensions is likely well past the tipping point already. No so long ago, the defined benefit pension--guaranteed retirement income--was a prevalent aspect of the U.S. financial scene. But no more. In 1980, 38% of Americans had a defined benefit pension as their primary retirement plan. By 1997, just 21% of Americans had such plans, according to the Pension Benefits Council. That percentage is certainly lower now, and more and more plans have been passed off to the PBGC, a federal agency that insures pensions, but which does not necessarily pay the benefits retirees expected.

The ratio of active to inactive workers in existing defined benefit pension plans has fallen to roughly 1-to-1, down from more than 3.5-to-1 in 1980, according to the PBGC. This retirement math is starker than that faced by the Social Security system. The PBGC now pays the pensions of more than 1 million retirees.

While many more workers now have retirement savings plans such as 401(k)s, relatively few have sufficient assets to fund their retirements in a way that will maintain all or most of their pre-retirement incomes.

United's unions are preparing to fight the decision made by the company and permitted by the bankruptcy court, and they have threatened to strike. But with the defined pensions now a decidedly minority benefit, their partial loss is not likely to resonate politically or among United's customers.

More likely, the court's decision will encourage other airlines to follow suit. US Airways Group (otc: UAIRQ - news - people ), which, like UAL, is in bankruptcy, terminated the last of its pension plans earlier this year. Yesterday, Delta Air Lines (nyse: DAL - news - people ) said it might have to seek bankruptcy protection, too, adding that it expected a significant loss for 2005. The airline industry already has the second-most beneficiaries of any industry covered by the PBGC guaranties. Steel is by far the first. Unlike steel, however, the airline industry is not in a long-term slide in terms of total employment, despite its financial troubles over the past several years.

The PBGC guarantees corporate pension plans and pays benefits to retirees when company plans fail. When it takes over a plan, it receives its assets as well as its liabilities, and also collects insurance premiums from the plans it guarantees. So far, the agency has been able to meet its obligations, but currently it faces a $23.3 billion deficit between its assets and long-term liabilities. The takeover of the UAL pension plan is already factored in that number. Overall, it backstops the pensions of 44.3 million beneficiaries.

The bankruptcy court frees UAL from $3 billion in pension contributions over the next five years. But the shortfall between its pension plan assets and its liabilities is much greater, nearly $10 billion, according to PBGC estimates.

It is not immediately clear which beneficiaries will be paid less and by how much. The PBGC's maximum guaranteed benefit is adjusted yearly. This year, the maximum paid to most retirees is $45,614 for a 65-year-old, so those who are now due more or who retire earlier would be paid less.

UAL says unloading its pensions is critical to obtaining the $2 billion or more in debt financing it needs to get out of bankruptcy. However necessary, in a world where employer-paid pensions are increasingly rare, unloading pension obligations is likely to become increasingly common.

 

[Bagbelt]

The pension issue at UA I think was a forgone conclusion. Despite what AA mgt. says no one really believes the current pension formula will survive in it's current form. Amfa will have done well if they can hold on to the CBA.

 

[FWAAA]

If UAL and USAir fold as a result of their continual screwing of their workers, then the pressure to kill the AMR pensions will be diminished, as AMR's DB plans currently require less cash flow to fund than does WN's DC retirement plans, as a percentage of revenue and as a percentage of employee comp. AMR's plans are actually cheaper.

But if UAL and USAir survive for the long term, then AMR will probably have to freeze the plans and implement some kind of DC plans.

 

[MCI transplant]

Oneflyer,

That is a rather strong post.

Whether you like it or not, I have protections beyond those in management.

I've already lost one friend to RIF because she was in MGMT.  She should have been in decision-making positions because she was BRILLIANT.

She understood this industry inside and out,  yet she was RIFfed for political reasons.

This is why I do not trust AA management, yourself included.

I predict "Hackman" will be back at work before you will, should you be RIFfed.

We have recall rights, management does not...but you have to know that.

Coop

SLT

[post="264729"][/post]​

<_< Coop---- Enjoy ypur protections while you still have them! When's this contract open for renegotiation? You won't see them in the next!! Or if aa should go the United route into bankrupcy and void out your contract ???

 

[AAquila]

End of Pensions?

 

[Skyyggoddess]

Not true. you are confused about what shows up on the cash flow statement and the income statement. Any bill, paid or not, shows up on the income statement. IOW, if you "owe" your pension fund money, and chose not to transfer the cash, it is still an expense. The Cash flow statement will however reflect that although you owe the pension fund money, money didn't go there.

[post="264560"][/post]​

Driver,
Why are you lurking on our AAL board after you chided some of us for being on the UAL board?
Also, your comments about our employees...how you won't allow your family to fly on us because our pilots are so bad, basically can't hold a candle to the UAL pilots... and various other nasty little comments about flight attendants and more...still you want to be here...I guess I'm just surprised that you would wander over here.

Frankly I think you should be welcome on any board. We all have news to share, encouragement to share and advice.
Terry