E
EastUS
Guest
As for the east?: You're projecting your own notions upon others that you do not actually know, nor even begin to understand the feelings of, and you're wrong.
The pilot group , what do you think will happen ?
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As for the east?: You're projecting your own notions upon others that you do not actually know, nor even begin to understand the feelings of, and you're wrong.
exB717Flyer
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From two pilots comes three different opinions. Having been a member of the APA I can attest that they suffer from the same divisions and factional differences that any other union suffers from.
Perhaps. Concessions were inevitable and the company was screwing-on the pressure by telling the APA that bankrupcty lawyers were standing on the steps of the courthouse awaiting a decision. To this day many there feel that a trip through Chapter 11 would've been better than what they got.
Okay, let's say I'm wrong and the Easties really mean it when they say they'll get their way or shut the place down. What if the Westies decide we don't care anymore either and say "go ahead, shut the place down", and you do? Will that be a proud moment for you and your family? Will you feel you've done your part to make the world a better place? Will you be a happy person?
E
EastUS
Guest
In order:
1) "Okay, let's say I'm wrong and the Easties really mean it when they say they'll get their way or shut the place down."
You are wrong, although the majority out east would like for this place to succeed, it certainly doesn't look too good at present.
2) "What if the Westies decide we don't care anymore either and say "go ahead, shut the place down", and you do?"
East doesn't need the west's "approval" to do such.
3) "Will you be a happy person?"
As much, or even far more so than would be the case if this atrocity/joke/travesty of a "seniority" list is ever put into effect.
Here's some for you sir:
What IF?....The west becomes willing to back off the "award" via fences/etc?..and we can then all actually work "together" as a group for a decent contract, and with at least a potentially viable airline? Would that not be the far more desireable overall outcome?
Should this debacle continue on it's apparent path, and the west has/had plentiful options to prevent further deteriotion/failure of the business entity:
"Will that be a proud moment for you and your family?"
Will it be just "fine" with you guys trying to explain that some seemingly dysfunctional man's arbitration was so so precious to you that it exceeded the value of YOUR job? Will "your family" fully understand that your group felt it so utterly imperative to jump ahead of people that were flying before some of you were even born, that ANY degree of compromise just wasn't "fair"?
Will all your families understand and fully sympathize with "fighting the good fight" so that someone still on probation should instantly become "senior" to a man with 20 years of continuous service/experience? "Will you feel you've done your part to make the world a better place?"
What tall summit upon the Mountains of Morality is the west standing so proudly upon?....I can't seem to find it on anything mapping the regions of Ethics or Decency....Oh Wait!...Here it is in the Dark Shadows hidden within the Valley of Capricious Litigation...right next to the river of "I Got Mine!"..and in full danger of flood damage.
AWA320
Veteran
No sir you had national representation and you still do!! What you don't have and have not had for some time now is GOOD LOCAL LEADERSHIP!!! You have very poor representation in the form of your local status reps. You have been lied to and you continue to be lied to as they feed off of your emotions in this case!!
We on the west have done nothing but be accomadating to the east. We tried in vein to work out a deal but you refused because you wanted it all and now that it hasn't gone your way AGAIN, you wish to destroy all of ALPA as a result. Yes it will do just that, because all the other carriers look at this and say "why go to arb when you can just cry and nationl will step in to wipe away your tears??" This action of yours will destablize this and every union that represents pilots!
Now again your local leadership has worked against the MAJORITY of your interests and continue to do so. Fix that and fix that now before they harm you further!!!
and that has what to do with the APA "fine event"?
Management has admitted the pilots are costing US some $300 million. The pilots are asking for $200 million in "snapbacks".
A smart management would sign, yesterday.
I would add $100 million to the pilot "ask", yesterday.
Just sayin.
E
EastUS
Guest
And....umm...exactly WHAT....has said "national representation" EVER done for us out east?
We differ as to the "fix" procedure = "Throw ALL da' bums outta' here!!".
exB717Flyer
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When is binding arbitration not binding? If we backed off the Nicolau Award we'd set the precedent that there's a hidden step in ALPA Merger Policy: if one side doesn't like what they get they can exert pressure to coerce the other side to concede. And make no mistake, what you espouse is coercion and extortion. You try to come across as reasonable, soothingly telling me all we have to do is sweeten the deal for you and all will be better, telling me that we should give up what was legally decided in the interest of "unity". Wrong! Choosing to not negotiate furher will not destroy any unity; only YOU can do so. The blood will be only on YOUR hands
break
Our MEC chairman just had a conference call and I wish to confirm something. We were given access to the arbitration hearings daily transcripts, unedited. He stated that the USAirways side wasn't given that access. Is this true?
Um, when it violates policy?
You wish to confirm, what? Are you soliciting information? Are you purveying propaganda?
If so, did you take advantage of such access and did it shape whether you responded to your reps or not? I don't expect you to tell the truth. It is more of a rhetorical question.
More important. Are you suggesting that the "award"/HP windfall should be thrown out because the parties were not treated equally?
AWA320
Veteran
[quote name='EastUS' date='Jun 1 2007, 10:21 AM'
Here's some for you sir:
What IF?....The west becomes willing to back off the "award" via fences/etc?..and we can then all actually work "together" as a group for a decent contract, and with at least a potentially viable airline? Would that not be the far more desireable overall outcome?
Should this debacle continue on it's apparent path, and the west has/had plentiful options to prevent further deteriotion/failure of the business entity:
"Will that be a proud moment for you and your family?"
Will it be just "fine" with you guys trying to explain that some seemingly dysfunctional man's arbitration was so so precious to you that it exceeded the value of YOUR job? Will "your family" fully understand that your group felt it so utterly imperative to jump ahead of people that were flying before some of you were even born, that ANY degree of compromise just wasn't "fair"?
Will all your families understand and fully sympathize with "fighting the good fight" so that someone still on probation should instantly become "senior" to a man with 20 years of continuous service/experience? "Will you feel you've done your part to make the world a better place?"
What tall summit upon the Mountains of Morality is the west standing so proudly upon?....I can't seem to find it on anything mapping the regions of Ethics or Decency....Oh Wait!...Here it is in the Dark Shadows hidden within the Valley of Capricious Litigation...right next to the river of "I Got Mine!"..and in full danger of flood damage.
[/quote]
You know we say go for it, rip it apart, burn it down everybody to the unemployment line!! We simply don't care either! Make no mistake about it EASTUS we will not give anything that was not given in the original award so do what you gotta do!!!
You know good and well your pilots were not harmed as a result of this award. Your senior pilots are still senior and your jr pilots are still jr!! What you wanted is to make all your pilots senior at our expense and to that we say hell no!!! So we say again, do what you gotta do...
Here's some for you sir:
What IF?....The west becomes willing to back off the "award" via fences/etc?..and we can then all actually work "together" as a group for a decent contract, and with at least a potentially viable airline? Would that not be the far more desireable overall outcome?
Should this debacle continue on it's apparent path, and the west has/had plentiful options to prevent further deteriotion/failure of the business entity:
"Will that be a proud moment for you and your family?"
Will it be just "fine" with you guys trying to explain that some seemingly dysfunctional man's arbitration was so so precious to you that it exceeded the value of YOUR job? Will "your family" fully understand that your group felt it so utterly imperative to jump ahead of people that were flying before some of you were even born, that ANY degree of compromise just wasn't "fair"?
Will all your families understand and fully sympathize with "fighting the good fight" so that someone still on probation should instantly become "senior" to a man with 20 years of continuous service/experience? "Will you feel you've done your part to make the world a better place?"
What tall summit upon the Mountains of Morality is the west standing so proudly upon?....I can't seem to find it on anything mapping the regions of Ethics or Decency....Oh Wait!...Here it is in the Dark Shadows hidden within the Valley of Capricious Litigation...right next to the river of "I Got Mine!"..and in full danger of flood damage.
[/quote]
You know we say go for it, rip it apart, burn it down everybody to the unemployment line!! We simply don't care either! Make no mistake about it EASTUS we will not give anything that was not given in the original award so do what you gotta do!!!
You know good and well your pilots were not harmed as a result of this award. Your senior pilots are still senior and your jr pilots are still jr!! What you wanted is to make all your pilots senior at our expense and to that we say hell no!!! So we say again, do what you gotta do...
I don't know if they were available, but if there were I missed them. All I remember were briefings. What I would like to see are transcripts from the mediation and negotiations. You guys say you were offering a good deal, I would like to see what we turned down. If there was truly a good deal out there we all lost by letting this go to Mr. Nic. If it was anything like what you sent to Mr. Nic., then there was no way we could agree to that.
So, you are admitting you were placed at a disadvantage compared to the HP folks?
If so, make that statement public, please.
Well, this is a public board. I'm not sure what you are asking.
You advertise yourself as a "PI brat". Presumably you harken to PI. How about a letter to the editor? Post something on ALPA. Copy those of us without access.
Okay, perhaps I am too hard on you. Do something you can tell your grandkids about. Post a sign over a freeway, write a letter to your paper/another paper.
Do something, anything. Make a stand. Place your principles up front. I can respect anyone that is willing to place their beliefs up front, especially if I don't agree. It is those who hide that I despise.
Sir I have no idea what you are talking about. I can't even tell what side your are on. Yes, I was originally hired at PI. What is it you want me to do?
I want you to do what you want to do, even if I disagree with you. I want you to have a position and the desire to advance or even change your position, depending on the facts and truths you encounter.
I want you to be you. I respect you and your opinion, even if you may not. My big problem comes about when someone does not respect themselves. You are worthy to take an opinion, even is it turns out to be wrong. Your years of service guarantees that your word will be taken with the seniority it represents and not a day less.
The West will end up with DOH and, now, no fences. They could have gotten conditions and restrictions but, like in any greedy venture, they will end up with much less than they could have had, rich rewards for an airline founded by scabs.
