The Merger as seen by the UAL MC

[EastUS]

Excellent post, jetz

Hardly surprised that you would think so

 

[USCREW]

Hardly surprised that you would think so

Excellent post East!

 

[767jetz]

How about 5 Grand on the table next month, or asap upon mutual scheduling considerations that says that I'll take your sorry, thirty-degree-max bank "professional pilot" tail to the bank/cleaners in a setup match at some "Fighter Fantasy" deal of mutual agreement?

Would that make you feel more like a real man? How sad it is that when someone simply disagrees with your position and does not back down and submit to your will, you resort to bravado such as this.

I'm sure we can come up with plenty of contests that would be equally one-sided and prove just as little. Let's see... I bet I have "tons more time and hours" than you behind the wheel of a race car at sanctioned events. How about a few laps at Lime Rock or Pocono Speedway? I bet that would prove something, wouldn't it?

Oooooo! Even better! How about heads up on the show "Pinks!" ?? Then we can see the results on national TV! And I'll go home with your "Suped-up" Pacer! (Or is it a Gremlin?)

Or maybe we should just resolve this with dueling pistols. Care to match skills on a shooting range?

Should we compare bank accounts? Or houses? Or maybe we should simply find out who has the bigger... well you get the idea.

How childish can we get here? :huh:

As for the piloting skills that matter most, (ie: the ones we use to safely transport thousands of passengers from "A" to "B" ) I'm sure you're skills are quite professional as are mine. I have nothing to prove, least of all to you, since my record an reputation with those I've flown with speaks for itself.

I challenge you to back up your punk mouth Shouldn't be any issue for such a "professional pilot" and respectable "P - E - E - R."

Sticks and stones my friend. Say what you want, but I would gladly get in a simulator with you and go head to head just for fun. I'd even do it in a 737 or 320 since I've flown both. (Wouldn't want to unfairly disadvantage you by doing it in a 767. )

Well..at least think about it. It'd take less time and work to simply grow a pair than it will to come up with some convoluted BS reply that attempts to denigrate an honest Challenge.

Sorry, I just can't take you seriously. You do keep all that hostility out of the cockpit, right?

You and LCC#1 obviously carry much anger toward people who have opinions not in line with your own. But regardless of all your chest thumping and rhetoric, I STILL don't think you will be successful in forcing your will on anyone, and I STILL strongly disagree with the idea that you can rectify your misfortunes by taking away from those who made better choices or had better luck in their career.

PS. I'm looking forward to your next intellectual response. Hopefully you can do better than this:

go F### YOURSELF!!

 

[Freighterguynow]

I honestly am sorry that your "tons more years of work time, and many thousands of more flying hours" got you so little a return at USAir.

And it certainly is not anyone's responsibility or obligation to give up what they have worked hard for, to make your career whole again.

Not one USAir pilot ( that I know of ) is advocating bidding PHX and removing an AWA pilot from their position.

We want our domiciles and our attrition that we brought to the merger: prior to which the AWA pilot group had no expectations of ever flying.

In return, I would ask how you feel you've 'worked hard' and now retain a right to a similar position in BOS or LGA or any other AAA domicile before a pilot who spent 20+ years there?

 

[Mr Furlough]

N

In return, I would ask how you feel you've 'worked hard' and now retain a right to a similar position in BOS or LGA or any other AAA domicile before a pilot who spent 20+ years there?

Interesting question. I'm awaiting a response that will most likely never come. But hey, remember, it's not about earning it-it's what they think they are "relatively" entitled to.

 

[CaptainZitface]

asap upon mutual scheduling considerations that says that I'll take your sorry, thirty-degree-max bank "professional pilot" tail to the bank/cleaners in a setup match at some "Fighter Fantasy" deal of mutual agreement?

Great..another washed-up fighter jock who is convinced he's God's gift to aviation and has to tell people about it...30 years, 50 pounds, 3 wives, 3 divorces and 2 hair implants later. (Bet you're close friends with former Ace, former Congressman and current federal inmate "Duke" Cunningham.)

We now proudly present our in-flight movie: EastUs: the later years.

 

[nostradamus]

This is why you probably won't find a direct link to the document or the Power Point presentation.

I've seen them both and rest assured that the UAL MEC as well as the MEC's of all other ALPA carriers are watching and analyzing this process carefully. You can also rest assured that there is communication between Prater and the EC, and the other MEC's. Everyone has a stake in this process unfolding correctly by the rule of law and by prescribed policies.

Yes the UAL MEC are all together on this fellow "ALPA borthers". ALPA brothers unity can be studied in the bible by reading about Cain and Abel

Click here for more info on the United pilots solidarity

 

[767jetz]

Not one USAir pilot ( that I know of ) is advocating bidding PHX and removing an AWA pilot from their position.

I understand that. IMO this arbitration award and the reaction of the East MEC is more about the next possible merger than it is about what AWA has that the East pilots want. I believe this due to their insistence of DOH language even in the face of stern warnings by the arbitrator.

All you have to do is read posts from people like EastUs, LCC#1, and USA320pilot to see that they would be disgruntled with any outcome that did not give them DOH. A negotiated agreement was never an option with them until the they got a ruling that was not to their liking

We want our domiciles and our attrition that we brought to the merger: prior to which the AWA pilot group had no expectations of ever flying.

I don't think the West really wants to bid your domiciles. And as for attrition, I have posed questions in other threads about the fact that much of that attrition is coming from pilots retiring from the right seat or even from furlough, which has no or little effect on upward mobility. However when I posed those questions before, all I got was attacks and name calling from the same hostile group on this thread.

In return, I would ask how you feel you've 'worked hard' and now retain a right to a similar position in BOS or LGA or any other AAA domicile before a pilot who spent 20+ years there?

I am not a West pilot. As a UA pilot I have an interest in the outcome of this arbitration and the precedent it sets in our industry. If I were an AWA pilot I would not feel that I should have the right to bid into a AAA domicile as a lateral move from the same seat to the same seat. But An upgrade to a higher position should go to a pilot based on relative seniority, and where they were before the merger.

So in the case of a senior AWA f/o bidding into a captain position in a AAA domicile before a very junior East f/o who was close to furlough and years away from holding a line (block) let alone a captain position, yes I do think it is acceptable. The junior East f/o that is in LGA for example, for 20 years and at the bottom, will still be in LGA as before the merger. I also think that for every West pilot that bids to an East captain position, there will be an East f/o happy to bid West. That is my opinion of course, and I understand it is not popular with the East.

Mergers are always imperfect, and you generally deal with varying degrees of bad. I think upgrade and career expectation trumps domicile selection in most cases. I for one stay in a seat lower than I can hold in order to stay in my domicile. That is my choice because I would rather be a 767 f/o in New york than a reserve 737 captain commuting to ORD. I don't think you will see a mass exodus from the West f/o's taking captain positions in the East.

 

[nostradamus]

Yes the UAL MEC are all together on this fellow "ALPA borthers". ALPA brothers unity can be studied in the bible by reading about Cain and Abel

Click here for more info on the United pilots solidarity

 

[Mr Furlough]

If I were an AWA pilot I would not feel that I should have the right to bid into a AAA domicile as a lateral move from the same seat to the same seat. But An upgrade to a higher position should go to a pilot based on relative seniority, and where they were before the merger.

So in the case of a senior AWA f/o bidding into a captain position in a AAA domicile before a very junior East f/o who was close to furlough and years away from holding a line (block) let alone a captain position, yes I do think it is acceptable. The junior East f/o that is in LGA for example, for 20 years and at the bottom, will still be in LGA as before the merger.

Why do you think that the 5 year west pilot is entitled to that attrition in the east. Why shouldn't the 20 year f/o in LGA get that upgrade first? How does the west gain that advantage of what was never theres to take?

 

[767jetz]

Why do you think that the 5 year west pilot is entitled to that attrition in the east. Why shouldn't the 20 year f/o in LGA get that upgrade first? How does the west gain that advantage of what was never theres to take?

First of all, I think the attrition is way overstated by the East, because much of it is coming from the f/o seat, pilots on long term leave, and even furloughed pilots. I've heard numbers of something like 50% or more of the upcoming retirements, but I don't now exactly. (BoeingBoy, are you out there?)

That brings the actual upward movement due to retirements much closer to the movement the West pilots were expecting from their side. Then you have to take into consideration the retirements coming off the 330. These positions are protected by the award and bring the remaining numbers between east and west even closer.

Then, it was clearly Nicolau's assertion that AWA was more financially stable than USAir and that the expectations of the West pilots with a no growth scenario was greater. When you factor in all of these variables, it can be argued that the attrition you speak of has a negligible effect on actual upward movement when compared to pre-merger expectations.

I'm not saying it's perfect. And I have claimed all along that attrition is probably one area you could have seen some improvements had your MEC allowed your negotiator to drop the DOH/LOS demand and negotiate alternative solutions before binding arbitration. It is not the arbitrators job to negotiate for you.

 

[EastUS]

Would that make you feel more like a real man? How sad it is that when someone simply disagrees with your position and does not back down and submit to your will, you resort to bravado such as this.

I'm sure we can come up with plenty of contests that would be equally one-sided and prove just as little. Let's see... I bet I have "tons more time and hours" than you behind the wheel of a race car at sanctioned events. How about a few laps at Lime Rock or Pocono Speedway? I bet that would prove something, wouldn't it?

Oooooo! Even better! How about heads up on the show "Pinks!" ?? Then we can see the results on national TV! And I'll go home with your "Suped-up" Pacer! (Or is it a Gremlin?)

Or maybe we should just resolve this with dueling pistols. Care to match skills on a shooting range?

Should we compare bank accounts? Or houses? Or maybe we should simply find out who has the bigger... well you get the idea.

How childish can we get here? :huh:

As for the piloting skills that matter most, (ie: the ones we use to safely transport thousands of passengers from "A" to "B" ) I'm sure you're skills are quite professional as are mine. I have nothing to prove, least of all to you, since my record an reputation with those I've flown with speaks for itself.
Sticks and stones my friend. Say what you want, but I would gladly get in a simulator with you and go head to head just for fun. I'd even do it in a 737 or 320 since I've flown both. (Wouldn't want to unfairly disadvantage you by doing it in a 767. )
Sorry, I just can't take you seriously. You do keep all that hostility out of the cockpit, right?

You and LCC#1 obviously carry much anger toward people who have opinions not in line with your own. But regardless of all your chest thumping and rhetoric, I STILL don't think you will be successful in forcing your will on anyone, and I STILL strongly disagree with the idea that you can rectify your misfortunes by taking away from those who made better choices or had better luck in their career.

PS. I'm looking forward to your next intellectual response. Hopefully you can do better than this:

1)"Would that make you feel more like a real man?" You mean by going up against the likes of you in a non-lethal/for grins scenario? = Hardly..but it'd be fun to do some "for grins" fying....and take 5,000 bucks from you in the process

2)"I'm sure we can come up with plenty of contests that would be equally one-sided and prove just as little." Ummm...I wasn't the one crowing about being "your peer"..."P-E-E-R" nor about claiming title to being a "professional pilot"..without any ability to back up the claims. And NOW?..the contest would be "one-sided"?...Why didn't you just say so?.."professional pilot"...and "peer"?

3)"Say what you want, but I would gladly get in a simulator with you and go head to head just for fun." I say: Bring it on, and name your stakes..and don't spare the 767. If 30 degree banks in sims is your idea of "fun"....OK.

4)Didn't know that you were a big time race car driver. I'm a bit confused as to WTF that has to do with flying?..or why you feel the desperate need to have posted such? What's next? "Don't challenge me...I'm an experienced Ballerina?" I've already got your ability to Tap Dance figured out

5)"Or maybe we should just resolve this with dueling pistols. Care to match skills on a shooting range?" Sigh... although I'd prefer swords; I'd love that...it's a true pity that we live in a cowardice/self interest based society as per "the rule of law" that you so love...that's sadly made such illegal.

6)"Or maybe we should simply find out who has the bigger... " Sigh...This is embarrassing but: OK: What's her name and phone number?...You'll naturally want to have a fair, and fully known to you arbitrator for the issue

 

[EastUS]

Great..another washed-up fighter jock who is convinced he's God's gift to aviation and has to tell people about it...30 years, 50 pounds, 3 wives, 3 divorces and 2 hair implants later. (Bet you're close friends with former Ace, former Congressman and current federal inmate "Duke" Cunningham.)

We now proudly present our in-flight movie: EastUs: the later years.

"Great..another washed-up fighter jock who is convinced he's God's gift to aviation"
I've no such delusions...I'm just a bit particular about who arrogantly assigns themselves, sight unseen/etc..as being a "P-E-E-R". I also have no appreciation for any that "mouth off"..and cannot back it up.

Actually? I'd be very proud to know Duke Cunningham. He did far more for this country in a single mission than I've ever done/will ever do in my lifetime. His tactics and strategies severely reduced the Mig threat ( not to mention the ones he personally killed), and doubltess saved many American aircraft and crew. BTW; there's no such thing as a "former Ace". Cunningham IS an Ace..something that you clearly cannot comprehend nor appreciate. Nothing of his "going crooked" whilst a politican changes any of that.

Thanks for the link. Seen it before but it's good grins

 

[767jetz]

At least now you're making me laugh!

And NOW?..the contest would be "one-sided"?...Why didn't you just say so?

You obviously claim to have fighter time, and know that I do not, so in such a match up it think it would be a one-sided contest. Don't you agree?

4)Didn't know that you were a big time race car driver. I'm a bit confused as to WTF that has to do with flying?..or why you feel the desperate need to have posted such? What's next? "Don't challenge me...I'm an experienced Ballerina?" I've already got your ability to Tap Dance figured out

No surprise that my analogy was lost on you. My point is that your "Fighter Fantasy" challenge is just as irrelevant to the world of commercial aviation and the point of this discussion, as would be me challenging you on the race track.

Get it now?

Or do you have a desperate need to advertise your claimed prowess in a dog fight? hmmmmm.

What's her name and phone number?...You'll naturally want to have a fair, and fully known to you arbitrator for the issue

I have about 5 REALLY funny responses to this that would probably get me sent to the corn field. So I think I'll pass. Let's just say that you probably already know her and have her number!

 

[EastUS]

At least now you're making me laugh!
You obviously claim to have fighter time, and know that I do not, so in such a match up it think it would be a one-sided contest. Don't you agree?

No surprise that my analogy was lost on you. My point is that your "Fighter Fantasy" challenge is just as irrelevant to the world of commercial aviation and the point of this discussion, as would be me challenging you on the race track.

Get it now?

Or do you have a desperate need to advertise your claimed prowess in a dog fight? hmmmmm.
I have about 5 REALLY funny responses to this that would probably get me sent to the corn field. So I think I'll pass. Let's just say that you probably already know her and have her number!

"No surprise that my analogy was lost on you."..Ummm..yeah...in my simple mind...I just didn't get why you would first be vehemently claiming that you're my "P-E-E-R"..and a "professional pilot"...but were only actually skilled to any degree driving cars around. That was certainly too subtle for me to see the "obvious" connection.

"My point is that your "Fighter Fantasy" challenge is just as irrelevant to the world of commercial aviation..." Ah..your latest tap dance now limits perceptions to "commercial aviation"..whatever happened to "P-E-E-R" and "professional pilot"?....And/Ummm...did you totally just miss this bit...3) from my earlier reply?:

"Say what you want, but I would gladly get in a simulator with you and go head to head just for fun." I say: Bring it on, and name your stakes..and don't spare the 767. If 30 degree banks in sims is your idea of "fun"....OK."

"(Wouldn't want to unfairly disadvantage you by doing it in a 767)" I'm touched...bring on the 767 punk
If that's all you can handle..but you're at least up for a "fight" in an airline sim...let's figure out the particulars and go for it

"So I think I'll pass. Let's just say that you probably already know her and have her number!" Doesn't say much for any of your known "Arbitrators" then

""So I think I'll pass." Sure that you want to "pass"? Criminy!...you've mouthed off at every level and opportunity. You've bragged about "unfairly disadvantage"-ing me via a 767...and it's only a bloody SIMULATOR..how bad for you could it get if we can set such up? Forget the "just for fun". We'd need an evaluating panel, and a proper wager