the IAM is mad at the back door deals at AA!

[swamt]

I mentioned awhile back about this comming to you guys at AA and US. It was back when we were nego our seniority list for SWA/AT. We were cussed for trying to "gain" seniority. It's nego's guys, as long as you follow the law which states "nego" a fair and equitable combined list. Well, we nego, and both sides found it to be fair and equitable by a very large majority voting to accept the deal. Both sides voted overwhelmingly above 80% in favor. Long story short; It will soon be your turn to do the same thing. ****WARNING**** Do not allow the TWU as well as the IAM do your nego for you. The TWU will do what ever deal they made behind closed doors with the company to combine seniority lists. Here's a suggestion; with the current AMFA drive so far along at AA, I think you guys should go ahead and file for a representational vote, get AMFA in and let the "membership" deside how they want their seniority lists integrated like we did here at SWA. You guys will have a voice and control how it is done with AMFA--This I will garrentee you. Another suggestion would be for US to run an emergency card drive for AMFA as well. I wish you guys luck, this will get ugly with your current representation at the table with "0", notta, ziltch input from the membership. As you all have already seen, the TWU has desided how you guys will integrate. Get AMFA in quick and get control of "your" union before it's too late. It's gonna be announced very soon about the merger, so you guys need to get the vote started before the TWU and or IAM rush in and screw your entire membership yet again...

 

[700UW]

Good luck?

I have been through three mergers with the IAM and seniority has always been dovetail and with no issues.

And I guess you failed to tell the board here that WN got extra seniority at the expense of the AirTran mechanics.

How is that fair?

And say all mechanic and related go AMFA, how are they going to negotiate an industry wide seniority list with all the airlines agreeing?

Sounds pretty fair fetched to me.

 

[AANOTOK]

I have been through three mergers with the IAM and seniority has always been dovetail and with no issues.

700UW, please explain to me one more time what dovetail exactly consist of.
I don't mean to make this sound it's just about about me, but I will use me as an example (hopefully I will get a nice buyout and not worry about it).
Anyway, I have 30 yrs with AA all in Fleet. Hired on at DFW and have always been in DFW.
So what does dovetail do?

Thanks

 

[1AA]

A system wide seniority list? I remember when AMFA was in negotiations at NWA. They pushed and got a portable seniority clause. In other words you brought your seniority with you to another carrier. This was used for pay purposed only. This was something that AMFA believed in as far as being paid for your time in the industry as experience.
Why should one start at the bottom of the pay scale if they bring 20 years of experience to a company. I could care less what they pay a new hire.
But that novel concept is no longer in any carrier contract that I am aware of.

 

[700UW]

If you have 30 years, you will be placed on the list where 30 years would get you, no one with less than 30 years would be senior to you. And it doesnt matter what city you were hired on at, seniority is system wide ,not station by station.

And 1AA, explain how if you left NW and when to US how your seniority would carry over since AFMA does represent anyone at US and AMFA hasnt negotiated that at another carrier and there is nothing the US CBA that would give you your seniority if you came from another airline?

Hasnt happened in the industry and never will.

 

[WNMECH]

Good luck?

I have been through three mergers with the IAM and seniority has always been dovetail and with no issues.

And I guess you failed to tell the board here that WN got extra seniority at the expense of the AirTran mechanics.

How is that fair?

And say all mechanic and related go AMFA, how are they going to negotiate an industry wide seniority list with all the airlines agreeing?

Sounds pretty fair fetched to me.

It was very fair.

Both sides voted for it.

The AT guys got to join us on our AMFA contract and receive all our AMFA negotiated payrates, benefits and job security.
If we went straight DOH, then one side would gave gotten a windfall and our side would have just lost seniority.

In AA case, I hear that even after a merger the guys will still be stuck with their BS wages and vontract thanks to the TWU MOU. Am I correct on that?

Ask the Airtran guys how they are liking their new huge raises and better benefits of our AMFA contract.
Not too many complaints so far.

 

[700UW]

Explain the whole story, there is more to it than just a bump in seniority, you also got other things.

I worked for PI and when we merged with US, no one at US got a windfall in seniority and I got US' wages which was an increase.

Fair is fair, just because their company was bought, they shouldnt have lost seniority, that is not what unionism is all about.

 

[AANOTOK]

If you have 30 years, you will be placed on the list where 30 years would get you, no one with less than 30 years would be senior to you. And it doesnt matter what city you were hired on at, seniority is system wide ,not station by station.

And 1AA, explain how if you left NW and when to US how your seniority would carry over since AFMA does represent anyone at US and AMFA hasnt negotiated that at another carrier and there is nothing the US CBA that would give you your seniority if you came from another airline?

Hasnt happened in the industry and never will.

What is the difference between dovetail and just combining senority lists?
Sounds pretty much the same to me.

 

[700UW]

Dovetail is a method of combing lists.

 

[WNMECH]

What is the difference between dovetail and just combining senority lists?
Sounds pretty much the same to me.

Dovetail is just a word, not a method.

The common methods are relative seniority and Date of hire.
Other methods consider career expectations or in SWA case we considered the huge disparities in each others contracts to be fair to both sides and prevent one side to gain a windfall over the other.

But all methods combine the lists (dovetail) except for the staple method.

 

[700UW]

Better go read MB and Allegheny-Mohawk, dovetail is a method of seniority integration.

Let me post this again, because you either didnt read it or you didnt comprehend it.

Historically, the IAM’s seniority integration policy has been to integrate by the current date of hire into the specified classification (dovetailing). However, the IAM recognizes that sometimes issues arise that require more consideration than a simple dovetailing. The IAM will create seniority integration committees made up of representatives from both pre-merger airlines to resolve seniority disputes when they arise. If agreements cannot be reached, the issues will be submitted to a neutral arbitrator for resolution.

The IAM has a history of protecting seniority in mergers - that is not the case for all unions. For example, when United bought Pan Am's Pacific routes in 1985, AFA argued before a neutral arbitrator that Pan Am flight attendants should be stapled to the bottom of the combined seniority list.

In contrast, when US Airways and America West merged, the IAM's merger policy protected the seniority dates of employees at both carriers, even if they were formerly members of another union.

 

[WNMECH]

Better go read MB and Allegheny-Mohawk, dovetail is a method of seniority integration.

I have read both.
You just don't understand them.

 

[700UW]

I understand it perfectly, its apparent you dont, I have been on an integration committee before, have you?

It also is a legally recognized method, been in the courts and arbitrations also.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=dovetail+seniority+integration&oq=dovetail+seniority+intregration&gs_l=hp.1.0.33i21.5509.8677.1.11801.10.10.0.0.0.0.361.2122.0j5j2j3.10.0.les%3Beqn%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D2%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue%2Conetoken%3Dfalse..0.0...1c.1.Ga4Z337bDtM&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41524429,d.eWU&fp=365e1585d5b3f592&biw=1525&bih=715

 

[WNMECH]

Better go read MB and Allegheny-Mohawk, dovetail is a method of seniority integration.

Let me post this again, because you either didnt read it or you didnt comprehend it.

That is just an explanation of the Date of hire method.

The relative seniority method is also referred to as dovetailing.

 

[700UW]

No dovetailing is date of hire into the classification, not straight DOH.

Try again.

At US I had a date of hire for travel, vacation accrual and bidding, I also had two different dates of classification, one for when I was utility and one for when I was a stock clerk.