The DEAL is done for Mechanics
- Thread starter RV4
- Start date
Well, it doesn't mean crap anyway. Based on the talks with the APA, evidently Carty's already decided to take it to BK and blame it on the pilots union. What does Don really want? 270 million over the 660 which means . . . . (drum roll, please), of course, the PENSIONS!!!!
Take it to BK, Don. At this point it doesn't look like there's much less to lose.
Take it to BK, Don. At this point it doesn't look like there's much less to lose.
----------------
On 3/30/2003 7:40:15 PM AAmech wrote:
Sometimes you scare me Bob! Are you deliberatly trying to mislead people or are you just ignorant about what is happening at UAL. The paycut imposed on the UA mechanics was a temporary measure so UA could meet its targets with its lenders. After a 14% cut was rammed down their throat they then went and STARTED their concession negotiations! It is completly false that we are taking more cuts than UA because they have'nt even finished their negotiations and NOBODY knows what they are going to end up with!
----------------
On 3/30/2003 7:40:15 PM AAmech wrote:
Sometimes you scare me Bob! Are you deliberatly trying to mislead people or are you just ignorant about what is happening at UAL. The paycut imposed on the UA mechanics was a temporary measure so UA could meet its targets with its lenders. After a 14% cut was rammed down their throat they then went and STARTED their concession negotiations! It is completly false that we are taking more cuts than UA because they have'nt even finished their negotiations and NOBODY knows what they are going to end up with!
----------------
Is UAL IN bankruptcy or not?
Are we IN bankruptcy?
Why would we give more before bankruptcy than UAL got in bankruptcy?
Can UAL mechanics strike if they so chose?
Its not false, we are taking more in cuts before BK than they got in BK. UAL started their concession negotiations last fall.They rejected a 7% cut prior to BK and our Union may be recommending a 16.5% cut! Sure nobody knows what they will end up with but nobody knows what is going to happen in the future anyway. If we give these cuts there is no certainty that when AA goes into BK that we wont get hit for more,like USAIR the only certainty is that we will not be able to get more for six years.
Why are we paying Union Dues to an organization that just accepts what the company dictates? The company came up with the $310million figure and you just accepted it. Why? I dont make more than my counterpart at SWA. He is qualified on one aircraft type. I'm qualified on 7 aircraft types. He works for a small company, I work for a large company. When we compare our executives we find that SWA's executives make a lot less than their counterparts at AA. Why is that? They say its because they work for a bigger company.Well so do I. Are'nt executives salaries supposed to be based upon performance? SWA is making money and AA is not. Why are our executives paid more than SWA? Are we being expected to work for less than SWA's mechanics, even though our qualifications are much broader (7 fleets instead of 1) so that we can continue to pay our executives outlandish pay and benifits for under performing their much less paid peers at SWA?
I will not give WELFARE to the rich Bozos who put us where we are now! I will not work for less so that we can continue to overpay them!
AAmech, will your pay and benifits be subject to the changes that are to be proposed? Where do you live?
You just don''t get it do you? THERE IS NO FAIRNESS HERE!!! We are going to get screwed! Period! Right now Management holds almost all the cards and in Chap 11 they''ve got them all! No almost then! Nobody gives a damn what a SW mechanic makes or the qualifications we have! Our Union has an obligation to minimize the damage that IS GOING TO BE inflicted on us! We have a choice, a bad cut in pay and benifits now. Or a WORSE one later! Nothing good will come from this. FACE REALITY!!
----------------
On 3/31/2003 8:34:23 AM AAmech wrote:
You just don't get it do you? THERE IS NO FAIRNESS HERE!!! We are going to get screwed! Period! Right now Management holds almost all the cards and in Chap 11 they've got them all! No almost then! Nobody gives a damn what a SW mechanic makes or the qualifications we have! Our Union has an obligation to minimize the damage that IS GOING TO BE inflicted on us! We have a choice, a bad cut in pay and benifits now. Or a WORSE one later! Nothing good will come from this. FACE REALITY!!
----------------
On 3/31/2003 8:34:23 AM AAmech wrote:
You just don't get it do you? THERE IS NO FAIRNESS HERE!!! We are going to get screwed! Period! Right now Management holds almost all the cards and in Chap 11 they've got them all! No almost then! Nobody gives a damn what a SW mechanic makes or the qualifications we have! Our Union has an obligation to minimize the damage that IS GOING TO BE inflicted on us! We have a choice, a bad cut in pay and benifits now. Or a WORSE one later! Nothing good will come from this. FACE REALITY!!
----------------
Who asked for fairness? All I expect is for us to fight. We have counter arguements. You say that the company will get everything it asks for. What do you base that on? If we say that we will strike what will happen to the value of the creditors assets then? All the cards? How can they have all the cards when they still need for us to do the work? As long as this is a labor intensive industry and we are prepared to fight for what we deserve they will never have ALL the cards. Its weak pimps like like you that have killed the labor movement. Its weak pimps like you that have destroyed this industry.
How much worse do you think it will get? 6 years! Do you think AA will be in Bankruptcy for 6 years? Even three years, USAIR is supposed to be out today, that means they were in it for 7 months. Why would we be so stupid as to agree to terms that would last so long beyond bankruptcy? Because the creditors demand it? Give me a break. As it is I will have to leave if this thing gets passed anyhow.
AAmech, will your pay and benifits be subject to the changes that are to be proposed? Where do you live?
Bob,one thing about our situation here at UAL is the 14% is only temporary
(likely to become permanent) but who knows what the final amount will be? With the pilots I think their 29% is now permanent pending ratification.I do
know one I will not vote yes for a six year deal to pay for the pilots b-plan supplemental monies.
(likely to become permanent) but who knows what the final amount will be? With the pilots I think their 29% is now permanent pending ratification.I do
know one I will not vote yes for a six year deal to pay for the pilots b-plan supplemental monies.
OK Bob, Dave
Scenario - TWU, APA or APFA fails to vote in the concessions. Company files bankruptcy and court imposes concessions, concessions which will be much greater than the 1.8 billion the company is currently seeking. They will probably impose and get closer to 3 billion per year in concessions.
Look at UAL before bankruptcy they were looking at less than 1 billion per year in savings from all work groups and now they are asking for 2.5 billion per year.
Ok you now have the option to strike as the company/court have shoved down your throat a concession package. Go for it, strike and the company''s new owners - the DIP will shut down the airline in less than 24 hours.
Yeah WN pays as much as AA or more, but how many jobs are they gonna have available and how long will it take you to get back to your current topped out pay rate 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years??? How much less are you gonna make your first year at a new airline? 40% pay cut from the looks of a new hire with AA. How much vacation are you gonna get as a new hire at WN, 2 weeks, maybe less if they make you accrue it before you can use it? You talk about how you never get concessions back, but the same thing if not worse will happen if you start over at a new job.
Don''t kid yourself that self help is really available in the event of bankruptcy. The choice is take the medicine now with a bit of sugar or later undiluted (little less likely to be sensored than another saying).
Above is my opinion, but feel free to enact the scenario and see what happens. Unfortunately we don''t have computer simulations to run, so whatever you decide to do can''t be undone.
Scenario - TWU, APA or APFA fails to vote in the concessions. Company files bankruptcy and court imposes concessions, concessions which will be much greater than the 1.8 billion the company is currently seeking. They will probably impose and get closer to 3 billion per year in concessions.
Look at UAL before bankruptcy they were looking at less than 1 billion per year in savings from all work groups and now they are asking for 2.5 billion per year.
Ok you now have the option to strike as the company/court have shoved down your throat a concession package. Go for it, strike and the company''s new owners - the DIP will shut down the airline in less than 24 hours.
Yeah WN pays as much as AA or more, but how many jobs are they gonna have available and how long will it take you to get back to your current topped out pay rate 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years??? How much less are you gonna make your first year at a new airline? 40% pay cut from the looks of a new hire with AA. How much vacation are you gonna get as a new hire at WN, 2 weeks, maybe less if they make you accrue it before you can use it? You talk about how you never get concessions back, but the same thing if not worse will happen if you start over at a new job.
Don''t kid yourself that self help is really available in the event of bankruptcy. The choice is take the medicine now with a bit of sugar or later undiluted (little less likely to be sensored than another saying).
Above is my opinion, but feel free to enact the scenario and see what happens. Unfortunately we don''t have computer simulations to run, so whatever you decide to do can''t be undone.
AirLUVer;
Lets look at USAIR. They gave concessions prior to BK, and they took more. They just took another 5%. USAIR is stuck until 2008 with concessions.United took a 14% paycut but thats it. Everything else is intact. The longer we drag this out the better. To go for a six year concessionary contract based upon the worst of conditions ever, Iraq, recession, stock market collapse, Sept 11 is insane. This industry usually makes a complete recovery from its deepest losses in less than two years. Last time we signed a six year deal we were stuck with it while the economy, prices and everything else soared. How long do you think this will last? Figure once Iraq is over, by the Summer, traffic could easily pick up. We would be better off with court imposed concessions, regardless of the amount than six years of concessions. Only a moron could not see that. If we agree to this we will lose a minimum of $90,000 each. Thats a bigger loss than any prior concessions.
Time will tell who is right. We are being told to make the same mistakes all over again. People like you hide under aliases so tomorrow you can deny what you say today.
By the way, where is the sugar?
Lets look at USAIR. They gave concessions prior to BK, and they took more. They just took another 5%. USAIR is stuck until 2008 with concessions.United took a 14% paycut but thats it. Everything else is intact. The longer we drag this out the better. To go for a six year concessionary contract based upon the worst of conditions ever, Iraq, recession, stock market collapse, Sept 11 is insane. This industry usually makes a complete recovery from its deepest losses in less than two years. Last time we signed a six year deal we were stuck with it while the economy, prices and everything else soared. How long do you think this will last? Figure once Iraq is over, by the Summer, traffic could easily pick up. We would be better off with court imposed concessions, regardless of the amount than six years of concessions. Only a moron could not see that. If we agree to this we will lose a minimum of $90,000 each. Thats a bigger loss than any prior concessions.
Time will tell who is right. We are being told to make the same mistakes all over again. People like you hide under aliases so tomorrow you can deny what you say today.
By the way, where is the sugar?
I don''t think there is any Sugar! Or Vasiline for that matter! I don''t want a six year deal either but your kidding yourself if you really think anyone''s going to "self-help" in this economy. Its going to be very tough just to live with these cuts and worse without a job! I recomend you consider Self-Immolation outside HQ building at DFW! I think that would leave a lasting impression on managment that we DON"T want a 6 year deal!
There is nothing like being asked by your own union to fund via pay/benefit concessions, a bigger airline and save employee jobs in an industry that is struggling from over capacity and supply versus demand issues. This has to go down as one of the dumbest moves in organized labor history.
Today we battle for customers to fill seats at an average ticket price of $158. For the next six years, we will battle for customers at a $99 average ticket price.
All that these concessions will do is put more pressure on our fellow airline employees to match or beat these concessions. The TWU is about to lead via voluntary force, AMFA and others, into a reversal of the hard fought pay/benefit gains of the NWA Technicians. Once they match or beat our givebacks, then AA will be back for more via Chapter 11 or whatever means they can muster, and the giveback cycle continues.
Instead of lobbying on behalf of the company for fuel charge relief and/or security charge relief, we should all be demonstrating for a RE-REGULATION of the AIRLINE INDUSTRY.
Let me make this clear. Until capacity is reduced, competition for customers will continue regardless of cost per available seat mile.
I say the AFL-CIO and the non-AFL-CIO industry unions should organize a four day massive demonstration demanding regulation of industry capacity/supply. Failure to do so will result in a continued merry-go-round of competition in employee pay and benefits in addition to the $99 seat price to keep customer base.
How much are you willing to give to ride the TWU Concession Merry-go-Round?
Today we battle for customers to fill seats at an average ticket price of $158. For the next six years, we will battle for customers at a $99 average ticket price.
All that these concessions will do is put more pressure on our fellow airline employees to match or beat these concessions. The TWU is about to lead via voluntary force, AMFA and others, into a reversal of the hard fought pay/benefit gains of the NWA Technicians. Once they match or beat our givebacks, then AA will be back for more via Chapter 11 or whatever means they can muster, and the giveback cycle continues.
Instead of lobbying on behalf of the company for fuel charge relief and/or security charge relief, we should all be demonstrating for a RE-REGULATION of the AIRLINE INDUSTRY.
Let me make this clear. Until capacity is reduced, competition for customers will continue regardless of cost per available seat mile.
I say the AFL-CIO and the non-AFL-CIO industry unions should organize a four day massive demonstration demanding regulation of industry capacity/supply. Failure to do so will result in a continued merry-go-round of competition in employee pay and benefits in addition to the $99 seat price to keep customer base.
How much are you willing to give to ride the TWU Concession Merry-go-Round?
The SELLOUT Company Union Officers are already using fear tactics to sell the concession in Tulsa.
The monthly membership meeting sounded more like a company propaganda rally than an organization for the worker.
The TWU Concession Merry-go-Round is in full swing at the Tulsa Local Union Hall.
The monthly membership meeting sounded more like a company propaganda rally than an organization for the worker.
The TWU Concession Merry-go-Round is in full swing at the Tulsa Local Union Hall.
----------------
On 3/31/2003 5:13:14 PM AAmech wrote:
I recomend you consider Self-Immolation outside HQ building at DFW! I think that would leave a lasting impression on managment that we DON"T want a 6 year deal!
----------------
On 3/31/2003 5:13:14 PM AAmech wrote:
I recomend you consider Self-Immolation outside HQ building at DFW! I think that would leave a lasting impression on managment that we DON"T want a 6 year deal!
----------------
Right after you.
The fact is we do not have to resort to self help but if the Judge abrogated our agreement we have that option at our disposal for when ever we want to use it. Lets say this war is over by the Summer. Pent up demand results in a surge of travel. If our contract is not completely restored we do it then. Even if it happens next year, or the year after that its still better than six years.
From the feeling I get from the floor, if this thing goes through there will be no airline in six years. Tulsa may be fine with all this but AA does not generate money out of Tulsa. If the line guys are that completely disgusted it will affect performance. Even if the company was able to get us to minimum wage how much will they save when guys wont go the extra mile to get the airplanes out?
----------------
On 3/31/2003 5:42:50 PM RV4 wrote:
<
Today we battle for customers to fill seats at an average ticket price of $158. For the next six years, we will battle for customers at a $99 average ticket price.
----------------
On 3/31/2003 5:42:50 PM RV4 wrote:
<
Today we battle for customers to fill seats at an average ticket price of $158. For the next six years, we will battle for customers at a $99 average ticket price.
----------------
Wrong.
Once the concessions are fully in place industrywide, shortly after the annual sabbatical at the airlines dude ranch, pricing power will make a miraculous reappearance. Ticket prices will go up and the airlines will once again be posting record profits. Kay Bailey Hutchison will bring forward S1327 and we will be forever locked into a substandard wage. Inflation will make additional cuts unneccesary. The wage will not be determined by collective bargaining but rather the lowest price that they feel they can replace workers with. We are on our way to the bottom.
This concessionary deal will cost us over $100,000 in 6 years. By contrast a top paid mechanic lost $150,000 from the period of 1978 to 2001, a period of 23 years. We will be losing $16,700 per year under this agreement vs. an average of $6500 before. This is more than double of what was lost in any other concessionary period. We will be the biggest sellouts of ALL time.
Right now we have coworkers over in Iraq fighting for our way of life. When they come back to a $16700 dollar a year paycut how will anybody be able to even look these guys in the eye? They certainly will not be returning to their way of life and we didnt even put up a fight. How do you think they will feel when we tell them that this was passed "because we were scared"? We were scared because "the company and the Union threatened us that we might lose our jobs". While they are dodging bullets, digging up land mines, and getting attacked with chemical weapons we were afraid that the entire airline industry was going to go out of business. Thats pretty much what they are saying. If we went into C-11 the rest of the industry would likely follow. Once that happens what is the government going to do? Let the whole industry liquidate? Guys this is a game of nerves between us and the corporate/government alliance. If we cant even face them down we certainly dont have the right to expect our young coworkers to go and face real perils for our sorry asses. If this goes through we are a disgrace to those who came before us and fought for decent working conditions, we are a disgrace to those who are laying down their lives in the belief that they are doing so to protect freedom. What Freedom are they protecting? The Freedom to run out of Fear? Fear is the primary factor hear. Doeesnt Saddam rule through the use of Fear? Isnt the company and the government also using fear to get us to give long term concessions in this short term crisis, that they created?We are just like the Buffalo headed towards the cliff. Sit back and think about this logically. What happened in the early eighties when the workers voted out of fear? What happened in 95 when the workers voted out of fear? Both times the company rebounded not just to profitability but RECORD profitability!!! Are we that stupid to be willing to sacrifice so that the company can achieve record profits and not just profits? This concession dwarfs all others. It is the Concession of all time and Carty, his staff and no doubt Jim Little and his staff will be handsomely rewarded should this pass.
Lets look at just two examples of the past dealing that we have gotten from this dastardly duo.
1995
Me too clause, "dont worry fellas whatever the pilots get we get". Yea if the planets align and hell freezes over, that was in the fine print.
Attrition- "Dont worry fellas, you are just selling out the next generation, you will be replaced with SRPs in the shops through atrition", Well these A**holes got what they deserved but I bet that they were shocked when they were made aware of the little word "system" as they were thrown out of the shops.
Right now our union has covered their butts completely. Jims letter on March 26th says that the company will file for BK later even if we give concessions and then come back for $500 million more.He steered the Presidents council externally so he can claim that he wasnt even there. "The Presidents Council did it". So when the company rebounds and the workers vote out all the Presidents he gets a new crop of Greenhorns to manipulate. Some may be good liars and still get back in like Nestor Rodriguez, the Fleet Service clerk who I'm told motioned to take away night shift from the mechanics, or that guy Maddish from Detroit that does whatever the international tells him to so they will allow him to continue his scam.
This contract is by far the worst thing that has ever been brought back by this Union. And that says a lot. Six years of massive cuts when we are probably less than a year away from profitability is insane. If Tulsa feels this is a good deal then you had better be prepared to move to places like New York or LA where a 1600sq/ft house on a 60 X 100 lot will set you back around $350,000. PLus $7000/yr in property tax. Prior to the current contract these guys worked two jobs to get by plus their wives worked. Some quit their second jobs others had their wives quit to take care of or start a family. We can not sustain a pay cut like this. Here in the NorthEast performance has been good since the current contract. Hall said that he will put the work where it gets done. What incentive does the worker in the NE have to bring work in? He is better off driving the work out so he can transfer to a cheaper place to live.
Use your heads before you vote. Six years is way too long. You will never make this back. The financial hit is worse than being on strike or completely unemployed for over a year. Over the six year period you will have worked for over a year for free. The airlines are lying to you. This is no more permanent than they said it was in 1982 or 1992. They effectively use the same lie over and over again. Just as all the experts said that the business cycle was dead in the late 90s (the same lie they said in the 1920S)this downturn will end, concessions or no concessions. Your union is lying to you, they hope that the airline will expand and provide more membership dues. Look at the past, both what has happened to us and what has happened in the industry and think to yourself does six years of massive concessions make sense?
----------------
On 4/1/2003 7:51:05 AM Hopeful wrote:
Did you say Ann Richards will bring forward S1327?
You mean the same ANTI-BUSH, ANTI-REPUBLICAN, STAUNCH, HARD ASS DEMOCRAT ANN RICHARDS???????????????????????????????????????????
----------------
My apoligies to Ms Richards- Should have said Kay Baily HutchisonOn 4/1/2003 7:51:05 AM Hopeful wrote:
Did you say Ann Richards will bring forward S1327?
You mean the same ANTI-BUSH, ANTI-REPUBLICAN, STAUNCH, HARD ASS DEMOCRAT ANN RICHARDS???????????????????????????????????????????
----------------
