The Apfa Is Worthless..................
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True power comes from membership participation. Strong representation is not purchased. Big internationals, are the poster children of corruptness. So what are you, another arm chair quarterback? To busy on the soap box to do something about making changes in the organization. You choose the easy fantasy of running to James Hoffa and saying make us strong. Not that would happen, NWA saw the light.buhbye said:
We see what strength being a part of AFA, got the United people. Nothing, a 10 year agreement, with mediated pay raises. A merger they didn't want with CWA go through, a president who nearly bankrupted the union continue on as president. Since UAL represents the largest chunk of dues, and members. Did their voice count? No it didn't. Where would our little 20,000 plus fit in to the IBT, TWU, or CWA? Just like before when we were part of TWU. NOWHERE. they want your money and your numbers. They done want to truly represent you in any fashion
representation does not make for a stronger union, only active participation does that. This AA flight attendant group is apathy central.
Mikey
Why I do agree that the APFA union membership is extremely apathetic, I am not sure they still have the best intrests of the membership as a whole in mind. If that were the case then the current RPA, that the line F/A's are working under, wouldn't be what it is today. Also, I would find it very doubtful that a union who has no personal interests at stake, since they are not directly involved, would have divided the membership like the APFA has done. With the TWA debacle and the latest RPA ,it seems personal vendettas were chosen over what is at the best interest of the membership. Not to mention, the unpreparedness of the APFA leadership to negotiate when things at AA were in critical stages. Also, How does one explain a union who so blatently negotiates away any such compensation to its members to those they know will be thrown on the street? These are the same members who had no choice but to pay dues and be a member of the APFA, or risk losing their job. The APFA leaders are also line holders, and the bottom line affects them personally. Therefore, they choose to negotiate with that premise in the back of their minds. I wouldn't call that "equal", and "fair" representation. Thus, the lawsuits continue and hopefully justice will prevail.
An interntaional union would be hard pressed to represent any members from AA and other companys had they done what this current union has done to its own membership. True, that part of the leadership of any international union would also be AA F/A's, but the group as a whole wouldn't decide any decisions based on personal biases. Looking at the options I would agree that we should look at the idea of getting new representation other that the APFA. This would eliminate personal interests and allow for a more overall representation of the membership. :blink:
What Unity?
Why I do agree that the APFA union membership is extremely apathetic, I am not sure they still have the best intrests of the membership as a whole in mind. If that were the case then the current RPA, that the line F/A's are working under, wouldn't be what it is today. Also, I would find it very doubtful that a union who has no personal interests at stake, since they are not directly involved, would have divided the membership like the APFA has done. With the TWA debacle and the latest RPA ,it seems personal vendettas were chosen over what is at the best interest of the membership. Not to mention, the unpreparedness of the APFA leadership to negotiate when things at AA were in critical stages. Also, How does one explain a union who so blatently negotiates away any such compensation to its members to those they know will be thrown on the street? These are the same members who had no choice but to pay dues and be a member of the APFA, or risk losing their job. The APFA leaders are also line holders, and the bottom line affects them personally. Therefore, they choose to negotiate with that premise in the back of their minds. I wouldn't call that "equal", and "fair" representation. Thus, the lawsuits continue and hopefully justice will prevail.
An interntaional union would be hard pressed to represent any members from AA and other companys had they done what this current union has done to its own membership. True, that part of the leadership of any international union would also be AA F/A's, but the group as a whole wouldn't decide any decisions based on personal biases. Looking at the options I would agree that we should look at the idea of getting new representation other that the APFA. This would eliminate personal interests and allow for a more overall representation of the membership. :blink:
What Unity?
You are right on many points. But to run to some where else when its more a matter of cleaning house, is just wrong. People like jw need to be eliminated. APFA or some other union Him and his ilk would have run on the same platform and gotten as many votes. Like we will see in the upcoming national election. GW will continue to put the fear of God in to people about terrorism and try to win the election on the premise of saving America. While neglecting the economy, health and welfare of the people in general. Like the flight attendants did here re electing jw. Many citizens will vote on the BS being put forward by the GOP and forget all the people without healthcare, jobs, trying to get by on a failing education system, soaring deficits, billions being funneled to other country's, and our kids and soldiers dying in the fields of nations around the world, so the president could right his daddies wrong. Its time we cleaned our house (APFA) instead, rather than just moving to what looks like a cleaner place down the street. We may find out after the closing the new place (big international) has plumbing, electrical, and structural problems of its own.
Agreed JW needs to go but look at the overall election and everyone but JW went. Thus, hopefully his power will be greatly diminished. Although, the union ( Apfa) leadership still consists of line holders, and if they are put in a situation again like the last one the question becomes how will they vote? This is where personal interests will play a role in their decision making. On the other hand, I also agree that a "big" union also has its problems but at what extent does those problems outweigh the current problems with the APFA? Either way problems will exists but personal bias should play No role in any decision making, and clearly that's what happend with the APFA. I personally am now for not having a union. All a union seems to be worth is getting jobs back for those who shouldn't be allowed to be back at work. It's merely a money making business. If one does their job like they promised when they signed the employment contract then what purpose does a union bring? Yes, there are instances when the company oversteps their boundaries but perhaps an idependant mediation/arbitration board could be brought in to argue these disputes.
I don't blame the company that I am unemployed, and no I am not TWA. The company had to do what it had to do in order to survive. Thus, if my "little" salary means the company will survive, then they have to do that. I am the collateral damage brought on by the personal biases against TWA from the leadership of the APFA. I blame the union. If they had done their job as they promised us when we were hired then and as I PAID them to do, then I still might have a job, or at least have had some financial assistance while I pursued another career. Some of you on this board will argue that to get rid of unions means you won't have recall rights then I agree thats a chance I am willing to take. However, any good company can recognize an outstanding employee. My record with the company is outstanding and speaks for itself. Therefore, without a union, I fell that my record alone would allow for me to come back to a job that i love.
Whay Unity?
I don't blame the company that I am unemployed, and no I am not TWA. The company had to do what it had to do in order to survive. Thus, if my "little" salary means the company will survive, then they have to do that. I am the collateral damage brought on by the personal biases against TWA from the leadership of the APFA. I blame the union. If they had done their job as they promised us when we were hired then and as I PAID them to do, then I still might have a job, or at least have had some financial assistance while I pursued another career. Some of you on this board will argue that to get rid of unions means you won't have recall rights then I agree thats a chance I am willing to take. However, any good company can recognize an outstanding employee. My record with the company is outstanding and speaks for itself. Therefore, without a union, I fell that my record alone would allow for me to come back to a job that i love.
Whay Unity?
jimntx
Veteran
Interesting discussion. And, congratulations to all participants for keeping it an adult discussion rather than devolving into the usual "you eat boogers"-"well, you eat bigger boogers" argument that usually gets started around the bottom of the first page of posts.
My 3 cents...(I'm older, I get to adjust for inflation)
I agree with Mikey that affiliating with an international union is probably not the solution. If you are living in filthy conditions, moving to a different house is only a short-term solution unless the members of the household are willing to start doing a little housecleaning.
For a union to experience the level of apathy shown by the AA f/as in the last election is an open invitation to corruption, fraud, and ignoring the will of the members. 11,000 out of approx. 24,000 f/as did not even bother to vote. That is unconscionable.
But, I think the former TWA flight attendants are right who say that the apathy begins with the APFA-promoted idea that the union's work can be done part-time. There should be full-time, salaried union reps working for the benefit of members all the time. At TWA they had a union rep in scheduling to make sure that the contract was followed without people having to go on illegal trips then grieve it later. The base reps were available on property on a daily basis to work with management to resolve issues before they reached the grievance level. A union rep had an office at company headquarters and was kept apprised of management plans--in fact was a participant in the formulation of those plans.
Yes, this is expensive, but I think the old cliche applies. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
I don't think that ANY of us would be better off without a union. Yes, I have empirical evidence (5 passenger letters of commendation, 50+ SOS cards, no late sign-ins or missed trips) that I did a better job than some who are still flying. But, consider this...
1. Without a union, would a 59-year old male be flying in the first place?
2. Among the women, without a union would you still be flying if you were over 35, married, or "not quite as slim as you were at 22?"
3. Would you be able to non-rev to your base from the city where you choose to live? (Historical note: I know of AA flight attendants still flying who came in when you had to work 7 years before you got any non-rev privileges and then it was one pass a year!)
3. Would there be such things as pay protection, recall rights, and any other of hundreds of benefits that we take for granted today?
Also, don't think that just because 3 of the 4 national officers have changed that things will necessarily change at Useless Blvd. Remember that the real power lies in the Board of Directors, and the majority of the current BOD are JW supporters.
P.S. See my new thread entitled, APFA's Latest Attack on the Furloughed F/As, for the latest low-class attempt by the current leadership to "punish" the former TWA flight attendants. By the way, Flyboy4u, you and I will be "collateral damage" if this next sleazy thing succeeds.
My 3 cents...(I'm older, I get to adjust for inflation)
I agree with Mikey that affiliating with an international union is probably not the solution. If you are living in filthy conditions, moving to a different house is only a short-term solution unless the members of the household are willing to start doing a little housecleaning.
For a union to experience the level of apathy shown by the AA f/as in the last election is an open invitation to corruption, fraud, and ignoring the will of the members. 11,000 out of approx. 24,000 f/as did not even bother to vote. That is unconscionable.
But, I think the former TWA flight attendants are right who say that the apathy begins with the APFA-promoted idea that the union's work can be done part-time. There should be full-time, salaried union reps working for the benefit of members all the time. At TWA they had a union rep in scheduling to make sure that the contract was followed without people having to go on illegal trips then grieve it later. The base reps were available on property on a daily basis to work with management to resolve issues before they reached the grievance level. A union rep had an office at company headquarters and was kept apprised of management plans--in fact was a participant in the formulation of those plans.
Yes, this is expensive, but I think the old cliche applies. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
I don't think that ANY of us would be better off without a union. Yes, I have empirical evidence (5 passenger letters of commendation, 50+ SOS cards, no late sign-ins or missed trips) that I did a better job than some who are still flying. But, consider this...
1. Without a union, would a 59-year old male be flying in the first place?
2. Among the women, without a union would you still be flying if you were over 35, married, or "not quite as slim as you were at 22?"
3. Would you be able to non-rev to your base from the city where you choose to live? (Historical note: I know of AA flight attendants still flying who came in when you had to work 7 years before you got any non-rev privileges and then it was one pass a year!)
3. Would there be such things as pay protection, recall rights, and any other of hundreds of benefits that we take for granted today?
Also, don't think that just because 3 of the 4 national officers have changed that things will necessarily change at Useless Blvd. Remember that the real power lies in the Board of Directors, and the majority of the current BOD are JW supporters.
P.S. See my new thread entitled, APFA's Latest Attack on the Furloughed F/As, for the latest low-class attempt by the current leadership to "punish" the former TWA flight attendants. By the way, Flyboy4u, you and I will be "collateral damage" if this next sleazy thing succeeds.
OP
buhbye
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- Jan 16, 2004
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What I do know is that is is not just ole JW who is the problem.
It is the whole smorgesboard of "lifer's" that run the apfa.
The membership is uneducated because the apfa CHOOSES to keep it that way.
Don't want to educate the women folk, and mens.........if they start a learnin' somethin.....
they might say no more......disagree............................
Please, the apfa will not have the finacial resources needed to enter into negotiations.
If the quality of negotiators is anything like the RPA, we might as well go get our IHOP uniforms on.
They pay that attorney $100,000.00 a month.
For what? Look at the mess we are in.
The accounting firm too..please! They just got sanctioned by the SEC. and are the companies firm too.
They stole our vote last year, and NOW they are doing it again.........
Seems more like a dictatorship.
Gee welcome to Fidel Air.........no vote, no food.................but you get to 'pretend' what you think matters...............
There is no scope, really, our pensions suck and that little engine that could, hasn't and can't.
Why? Because that's how they want it. They don't want anyone coming in that is not a total follower.
That don't want any people that have real solutions, real answers.........an independent opinion.
The membership is made to suffer tragically at the feet of incompetence.
The apfa has put their in- fighting and greed in front of the membership long enough.
Every single time a new group gets in their it is the same old song and dance......
Each time the results are worse..............and worse and so forth.
The apfa was told during the RPA that the company would stop dues check off, if it wasn't a go..............
So you think they put us first?
NO........
They put dues money first.
There is NO accountability. They do what they want and how they want.
They don't mind spending $1,200.00 a month on apfa paid apt. which is fine but in the DFW are that is high.
$8,000-10,000 on NEW furniture, maid service....................
But they baulk at hiring PROFFESSIONAL NEGOTIATORS, LABOR EXPERTS, MEDIA.
So, lets not say that an independent union just want your dues money. (plus that is the oldest union busting strategy known to man........)
The apfa has done quit nicely with ours, that is everyone besides the membership!
It is the whole smorgesboard of "lifer's" that run the apfa.
The membership is uneducated because the apfa CHOOSES to keep it that way.
Don't want to educate the women folk, and mens.........if they start a learnin' somethin.....
they might say no more......disagree............................
Please, the apfa will not have the finacial resources needed to enter into negotiations.
If the quality of negotiators is anything like the RPA, we might as well go get our IHOP uniforms on.
They pay that attorney $100,000.00 a month.
For what? Look at the mess we are in.
The accounting firm too..please! They just got sanctioned by the SEC. and are the companies firm too.
They stole our vote last year, and NOW they are doing it again.........
Seems more like a dictatorship.
Gee welcome to Fidel Air.........no vote, no food.................but you get to 'pretend' what you think matters...............
There is no scope, really, our pensions suck and that little engine that could, hasn't and can't.
Why? Because that's how they want it. They don't want anyone coming in that is not a total follower.
That don't want any people that have real solutions, real answers.........an independent opinion.
The membership is made to suffer tragically at the feet of incompetence.
The apfa has put their in- fighting and greed in front of the membership long enough.
Every single time a new group gets in their it is the same old song and dance......
Each time the results are worse..............and worse and so forth.
The apfa was told during the RPA that the company would stop dues check off, if it wasn't a go..............
So you think they put us first?
NO........
They put dues money first.
There is NO accountability. They do what they want and how they want.
They don't mind spending $1,200.00 a month on apfa paid apt. which is fine but in the DFW are that is high.
$8,000-10,000 on NEW furniture, maid service....................
But they baulk at hiring PROFFESSIONAL NEGOTIATORS, LABOR EXPERTS, MEDIA.
So, lets not say that an independent union just want your dues money. (plus that is the oldest union busting strategy known to man........)
The apfa has done quit nicely with ours, that is everyone besides the membership!
Those lifers you refer too. Are the only ones who will run for office, who will put up with the petty BS flight attendants give to those who work there, anwser the phones and give the contract info to those to lazy to learn it. To lazy to bother to even carry there contract book. This has forever been a problem. There is always room for another bottle of duty free rum. Just no room for the contract book.buhbye said:
They are uneducated because they are lazy and uninvolved. The information and opportunity yo learn is open to all. It was Tommies wish to bring in the next generation of union people to teach them the wealth of knowledge they have. Fifty percent of the membership said No thanks will stick with the dork who screwed us.buhbye said:
For representation on all legal matters. My brother is just starting his divorce and is in to his attorney for almost 10,000. I would say at a typical law firm per hour billing, and for legal matters involving over 25,000 people. It may even be a steal.buhbye said:
OP
buhbye
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- Jan 16, 2004
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That is such BULL!!!
It is the unions obligation to educate the membership.
They CHOOSE to give only what THEY deem necessary.
Which then is half truths and a lot of times lies.
There are PLENTY of people who would and have offered help.
But, they don't want certain peoples help.
If you are not in the right "clique" (just like in High School) then you don't get to be ivolved.
All the horrible lies that the apfa 'leaked' to the membership about the TWA FLIGHT ATTENDANTS was and is inexcusable!
It is the same tactic that was used on Hedges for Petes sake!
At least she never stole our vote!
The TWA FLIGHT ATTENDANTS had SO much help to give during the RPA.
They have been through ALL this before. They know what tricks are out there!
If for one second the apfa had thought of the membership first, instead of the ignorance and arrogance that has been the demise of our careers; we wouldn't have the WORST deal of all the labor groups!!!
But, NOOOOOOOO we wouldn't want our layovers, per diem, me too's and snap backs!!!
The apfa is so good at dodging responsibility and blaming it on everyone else!!
Never EVER do they take responsibility for anything !
except what makes THEM look good!!
"The group collectively agreed to give back $340 million in annual
wages and benefits and agreed to work more hours to earn those
reduced wages, part of the company's painful restructuring that cut
$4 billion from its costs and kept it solvent."
The company is right OUR apfa gave away the farm.
They violated the constitution, stole our vote and now have no more power than a wet piece of bread!!
So don't give the old blame game again...........It is getting REAL old!!
It is the unions obligation to educate the membership.
They CHOOSE to give only what THEY deem necessary.
Which then is half truths and a lot of times lies.
There are PLENTY of people who would and have offered help.
But, they don't want certain peoples help.
If you are not in the right "clique" (just like in High School) then you don't get to be ivolved.
All the horrible lies that the apfa 'leaked' to the membership about the TWA FLIGHT ATTENDANTS was and is inexcusable!
It is the same tactic that was used on Hedges for Petes sake!
At least she never stole our vote!
The TWA FLIGHT ATTENDANTS had SO much help to give during the RPA.
They have been through ALL this before. They know what tricks are out there!
If for one second the apfa had thought of the membership first, instead of the ignorance and arrogance that has been the demise of our careers; we wouldn't have the WORST deal of all the labor groups!!!
But, NOOOOOOOO we wouldn't want our layovers, per diem, me too's and snap backs!!!
The apfa is so good at dodging responsibility and blaming it on everyone else!!
Never EVER do they take responsibility for anything !
except what makes THEM look good!!
"The group collectively agreed to give back $340 million in annual
wages and benefits and agreed to work more hours to earn those
reduced wages, part of the company's painful restructuring that cut
$4 billion from its costs and kept it solvent."
The company is right OUR apfa gave away the farm.
They violated the constitution, stole our vote and now have no more power than a wet piece of bread!!
So don't give the old blame game again...........It is getting REAL old!!
OP
buhbye
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- Jan 16, 2004
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Yeah,FA Mikey said:
That reminds me THAT contract........................
It is SO BIG, hard to navigate!
Between that and the FAA manual you can barely get your inflight shoes in!
But, it's gone now............
We haven't been issued a current contract which leds one to believe that there is more changes and cuts to be made.............
jimntx
Veteran
I have several friends who fly for Continental. They couldn't believe how big my copy of the contract is.buhbye said:
Oh, and THAT contract is still in force. In fact it will be in force until 2008 instead of being reopened this year as scheduled. You just have to cut and paste the RPA stipulations over the benefits, work rules, and pay rates you used to follow in the contract.
You don't really need those inflight shoes anyway. According to Mr. Tiliacos, if you were really dedicated to your job you would be always sweet, always young, and wearing a girdle and 3 inch heels at all times when in view of the public.
Course that leaves me out. As a 59 year old male, I could never learn to walk in high heels without wobbling.
