The Airline Problem vs The Union Solution

[robbedagain]

I thought EAL went out at end of JAN 91? PTO those numbers from the NMB website are real numbers. as for an end to a strike, well lets see here, a strike ends when mgmt and union come to an agreement unless of course it is the IAM at USAIR or NWA

 

[PlayTheOdds]

...as for an end to a strike, well lets see here, a strike ends when mgmt and union come to an agreement...

What agreement did Eastern and the IAM make to end the strike?

 

[777 fixer]

They said that they went on strike while at Eastern. Didn't say a word about being replacement workers.


I guess its like the DOT stats are just a numbers game. What would happen if you were to get the rights of "Eastern Airlines" and reopened that once proud airline? How long do you think it would take the IAM to come knocking on your door? Do tell us 777 fixer, what does bring a strike to an end?

Boy you are trying real hard to defelect attention from yourself.

Guess we will have to take your "word" about theose three guys having worked for Eastern. Since you have already shown a tendancy to lie or at the very least not to be very thurrow that probably does'nt mean much. Your previous claim that lot of the "original scabs" being ex-Eastern guys is more than likely bogus.

Let me get this straight. The fact that the NMB has stated that 1/17/1991 as the end of the strike is just a "number's game"? No it's not a numbers gaem. It is a simple fact.

What would happen if I were to get the rights to Eastern Airlines and start flying routes under that name? Well since you are ignorant of how these things work I'll expalin it to you. One only buys the name to defunct airline. You do not buy the associated contracts and senority lists of the carrier that previously held that name. So if the IAM can "knocking on my door" waving an old Eastern contract in my face I would call the guys in white suits and a straight jacket to take them away. And while they were on the way out I would tell them that it is well withinn their rights to start a card drive at my airline. Trying to stop them from doing so would be illegal.

Honestly PTO you are starting to make yourself look foolish. Oh and before I forget let me answer your question about what brings a strike to an end. Well in the case of Eastern Airlines the company goes out of buisness therefore ending the strike. I thought I already exaplined this to you.

 

[local 12 proud]

What agreement did Eastern and the IAM make to end the strike?

They did'nt numbnuts, eastern went chapter 7 you know liquidation...FINITO.Are you really that dense and hard headed, or just wish to argue? How can a strike be ongoing with a non-existent company?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

They did'nt numbnuts, eastern went chapter 7 you know liquidation...FINITO.Are you really that dense and hard headed, or just wish to argue? How can a strike be ongoing with a non-existent company?

Eastern was in business for a very long time. What happened to the pension funds?

 

[local 12 proud]

Eastern was in business for a very long time. What happened to the pension funds?

are all rednecks so lazy? are you incapable of educating yourself? no wonder your a SCAB!...Here is your answer, and your welcome.


PBGC’s record deficit has been caused by the failure of a significant number of highly underfunded plans of financially troubled and bankrupt companies. (See Chart 3) These include the plans of retailers Bradlees, Caldor, Grand Union, and Payless Cashways; steel makers including Bethlehem, LTV, National, Acme, Empire, Geneva, and RTI; other manufacturers such as Singer, Polaroid, Harvard Industries, and Durango; and airlines such as TWA. In addition, PBGC has taken over the failed US Airways pilots plan. Mr. Chairman, pension claims against PBGC for 2002 alone were greater than the total claims for all previous years combined. At current premium levels, it would take about 12 years of premiums to cover just the claims from 2002.

During the last economic downturn in the early 1990s, the pension insurance program absorbed what were then the largest claims in its history -- $600 million for the Eastern Airlines plans and $800 million for the Pan American Airlines plans. Those claims seem modest in comparison to the steel plans we have taken in lately: $1.3 billion for National Steel, $1.9 billion for

LTV Steel, and $3.9 billion for Bethlehem Steel. Underfunding in the financially troubled airline sector is larger still, totaling $26 billion.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Didn't someone already try and fly Eastern a 2nd time? New Eastern or something??

As of last year Pan Am was still flying B727s and puddle jumpers.....in a name only really.

Braniff and Midway both went through 2 versions as well


Oh and as I remember there were charges filed in court over the eastern pensions against Lorenzo, i don't recall what the outcome was.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

Didn't someone already try and fly Eastern a 2nd time? New Eastern or something??

As of last year Pan Am was still flying B727s and puddle jumpers.....in a name only really.

Braniff and Midway both went through 2 versions as well
Oh and as I remember there were charges filed in court over the eastern pensions against Lorenzo, i don't recall what the outcome was.

The Pretend Pan Am is still flying into ATL. Gawd knows where they go and why. What a joke.

The Pretend Pan Am is still flying into ATL. Gawd knows where they go and why. What a joke.

Shet, sorry Third Seat, I meant to add.... Does Kiwi come to mind on the Eastern afterthought?

 

[robbedagain]

I thought PAN AM used to fly like to MHT or somewheres up in the Northeast as well into FLorida? As for PTO, I must say if you can type on your keyboard, why not take the time to type in a search of the pensions from eastern? are you really that lazy?

 

[Necrophilias]

are all rednecks so lazy? are you incapable of educating yourself? no wonder your a SCAB!...Here is your answer, and your welcome.
PBGC’s record deficit has been caused by the failure of a significant number of highly underfunded plans of financially troubled and bankrupt companies. (See Chart 3) These include the plans of retailers Bradlees, Caldor, Grand Union, and Payless Cashways; steel makers including Bethlehem, LTV, National, Acme, Empire, Geneva, and RTI; other manufacturers such as Singer, Polaroid, Harvard Industries, and Durango; and airlines such as TWA. In addition, PBGC has taken over the failed US Airways pilots plan. Mr. Chairman, pension claims against PBGC for 2002 alone were greater than the total claims for all previous years combined. At current premium levels, it would take about 12 years of premiums to cover just the claims from 2002.

During the last economic downturn in the early 1990s, the pension insurance program absorbed what were then the largest claims in its history -- $600 million for the Eastern Airlines plans and $800 million for the Pan American Airlines plans. Those claims seem modest in comparison to the steel plans we have taken in lately: $1.3 billion for National Steel, $1.9 billion for

LTV Steel, and $3.9 billion for Bethlehem Steel. Underfunding in the financially troubled airline sector is larger still, totaling $26 billion.

Local,

The above post is vital to adding some degree of clarity to this discussion. Good Job!

We may be entering the turn to no retirement in the USA. VERY SAD!

 

[777 fixer]

Eastern was in business for a very long time. What happened to the pension funds?

Well I hope my explanation helped clear up things for you. Not that I'm going to hold my breath.

 

[finman]

Local,

The above post is vital to adding some degree of clarity to this discussion. Good Job!

We may be entering the turn to no retirement in the USA. VERY SAD!

Maybe the end of defined benefit pensions, which would be a good thing. People should save money throughout their life on their own to fund their retirement. It's the only sustainable system.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Ah yes, Kiwi. The great Eastern(pilot) experiment.

Hey, but don't those Pan Am B727s look sweet with winglets?

 

[Don Smith]

-- $600 million for the Eastern Airlines plans[/b] and $800 million for the Pan American Airlines plans. Those claims seem modest in comparison to the steel plans we have taken in lately: $1.3 billion for National Steel, $1.9 billion for

I personally knew ex-Eastern mechanics and they were close to retirement age when things went belly up. They were bitter and the money they received for their pensions was a small fraction of the amount they were expecting had the carrier not been highjacked by Lorenzo and comapny.

Now to urge this thread back to the original discussion...Frank Lorenzo started this whole corporate culture of union elimination and the evil step-brother in his sucess was and still remains to this day...The Railway Labor Act. When airlines were deregulated the tenacles that connected it to the airline industry should have been severed (cut). In effect the congress said to airlines, "be fully dependent on the free market system", and to the workers the Act remained as a yoke around the neck of labor in the airline industry. Primarily an Act to keep the country running when railroads were the primary mode of transportation and commerce it unfairly fell onto airline workers to prevent them from stopping the flights of their airline. However, now that it is proven that the country can operate without one (Eastern) or two (PanAm) or three (Braniff) or four (MidWay) of it's airlines, someone in congress should repeal the provisions of the Act as it relates to aircraft. Better yet, repeal the whole thing.
If you want a TRUE free market system as it pretains to airlines, then cut the government restrictions. Badly managed airlines will fall and well managed airlines will prosper. A craft union like the AMFA would have real teeth and be better equipped to serve it's members. I'm certain BIG unions like the IAM would eventually tip the balance of fairness in the other direction but, like I have stated before on this site, evil men in high places will continue to do evil until they are brought to justice.

 

[Necrophilias]

FAA Inspector's memo below

PTO and I don't necessarily agree on what is valid. I suggest that the continued concerns at NWA require a closer examination. FAA inspector's memo details maintenance concerns at NWA
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 @ 22:25:34 EDT by planedoctor


by Mark Zdechlik, Minnesota Public Radio

Minnesota Public Radio News has obtained a Federal Aviation Administration inspector's memorandum detailing safety concerns about Northwest Airlines in the first few days of the strike by the airline's mechanics. The Twin Cities-based inspector has since been reassigned following the airline's complaint that he acted unprofessionally. Federal authorities are investigating the situation.

St. Paul, Minn. — The inspector's memo cites numerous examples of mistakes on the part of replacement workers and Northwest managers, who have been taking care of the airline's fleet in place of union mechanics. Northwest and federal officials say the company's fleet is safe.

The document dated Aug. 22, three days into the mechanics' strike, raises serious concerns about Northwest Airlines' ability to maintain its aircraft. It states that replacement workers and reassigned Northwest managers were making maintenance errors.




The memo doesn't address conditions at the airline since Aug. 22. There are indications the airline has overcome some early struggles. Northwest's on-time performance, for example, has improved significantly since the early days of the strike.

But on the third day of the strike the author of the memo, Twin Cities-based FAA inspector Mark Lund, wrote the situation at Northwest "jeopardizes life or property."

Minnesota Public Radio News obtained the memorandum from a source close to the situation.

The FAA's chief spokesman, Greg Martin, confirmed the document's authenticity. Martin called the specific allegations as yet unsubstantiated and would not comment on them.

Martin says it's important to note just one inspector has come forward with criticism.

Martin says the situation is complicated by Lund's own union ties. Lund is active in the union that represents FAA inspectors, even though he is not affiliated with Northwest's striking mechanics union.

"This is all in the context of a very contentious labor-management situation. So an expected byproduct of that is, from time to time you will get these sorts of charges and countercharges. Certainly in this case an individual ... happens to be a union official with the FAA inspectors," says Martin. "So we want to be able to very carefully sort through those charges, and again make sure that we establish the merits and substance, whether it be Northwest's charges or this inspector's charges."

Lund's memo recommends increased FAA oversight of Northwest and a reduced flight schedule.

The memo cites several examples of errors in aircraft maintenance operations FAA inspectors have observed.

In one instance, a line maintenance manager couldn't find the right switches to conduct an engine check on an Airbus A320. The manager, according to the inspector, acknowledged he had never performed an engine run on a live A320, and had only recently been trained on a simulator.

A replacement mechanic was unsure how to close the passenger entry door on a Boeing 757. Another failed to set the brakes on a plane, as required, to assess the condition of brake wear pins.

Lund also details an incident in which human waste spilled into the electrical equipment bay of a DC-10 because of a broken lavatory duct. The bay houses flight and navigational equipment.

In that case, according to the inspector's memo, a Northwest manager wanted to clear the aircraft for a flight to Hawaii, but the FAA stepped in to ensure the plane was properly cleaned and checked.

Lund is not speaking with reporters. Officials with his union say Lund felt sending his memo to FAA management, not going public, was the most appropriate way to raise his concerns.

FAA spokesman Greg Martin says the document triggered what he's calling two extensive investigations by both the FAA and the Department of Transportation's Office of Inspector General.

"The first and foremost [is] the investigation into the safe operations of Northwest," says Martin. "That's always our primary focus -- the safety of the traveling public and an airline's operating safely."

Martin says the second investigation is focused on the inspector who wrote the memo.

"We had received complaints that the inspector was intimidating Northwest replacement workers, was unprofessional in his conduct and exceeded his authority," says Martin, "so we are also investigating those charges."

Martin says Lund has been temporarily reassigned to administrative duties. Martin says the FAA nearly doubled the number of full-time inspectors watching over Northwest when the strike began, increasing their numbers from 50 to 80. He says the FAA has made no changes to its oversight of Northwest since receiving the memo.

Minnesota Public Radio News furnished Northwest Airlines with a copy of the memo. The airline declined to respond, but reissued a statement that "safety is of paramount importance to every employee at Northwest Airlines." The airline also noted that it is under increased surveillance by the FAA.

Linda Goodrich, the national vice president for flight standards at the union that represents FAA inspectors, says Northwest has no basis to question Lund's professionalism.

Goodrich says it's unfortunate the inspector has been removed from his normal duties where his skills are urgently needed.

"He's always been a professional," says Goodrich. "He's been doing this probably close to 15 years. And I don't know of anybody that's ever seen him in anything other than the capacity of doing his job as a professional at all times."

Goodrich says since the investigation became public, other FAA inspectors have raised similar concerns within their union.

U.S. Sen. Mark Dayton, DFL-Minn., received the memo and wrote to the FAA and the Department of Transportation asking for an investigation of the allegations.

Dayton's letter says in addition to the memo, his office has received allegations that from Aug. 20 to Aug. 31, nearly 500 FAA inspector reports filed at the Twin Cities office were not entered into an electronic database.

Dayton says those reports cited defects at a dramatically higher rate than before the strike -- a rate that would normally trigger an internal FAA alert.

Still, Dayton says the head of the FAA assures him Northwest's operations are safe. Dayton say he's avoiding Northwest because he does not want to cross the mechanics' picket line, not because of safety concerns.

"I would not at this point advise anyone to not fly Northwest, based entirely upon the assurance that I've been given by the FAA," says Dayton. "I'm not qualified to advise anybody about safety matters other than rely on the expertise of those that have been established carrying out those responsibilities. But again, I've been given that assurance by the highest person responsible for those reviews and decisions, the FAA administrator."

Minnesota Public Radio News also furnished the memo to aviation consultant Jim Hall, the former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board. Hall called the memo well-documented. He says the concerns it raises are serious, and warrant a high level of attention from the FAA.

"It raises questions about the training that these individuals received before they were put in line responsibilities," says Hall.

Even though the FAA is investigating Northwest's allegations that the inspector acted unprofessionally, Hall says any time an inspector raises concerns like these, they deserve serious consideration.

"When I was in government I always paid close attention to whistleblowers. While sometimes people consider them a thorn in the side, many times they're very conscientious individuals who are trying to do their job," says Hall.

The FAA says it hopes to have a clearer picture of the investigation by later this week or early next week.