SWA now getting involved with slot (s) possibilities

[robbedagain]

I would never be shocked if b6 were to set up a shuttle dca to lga if n only if they can win more than enough slots... as for dl 717 or crj or may be e 170 or 190 series aircraft from dal to atl or slc or both

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm by no means any legal expert/scholar, but what WT is saying doesn't quite make sense.  In my opinion, the gov can, and has in the past, re-allocated limited resources (slots) to carriers they saw fit their criteria.  A recent example I can think of would be the US-DL slot swap at DCA-LGA:  the gov approved the transaction, but some slots werre surrendered.  What is the difference in this case?
 
You sound pretty certain that DL is negotiating with the DoJ and you're pretty certain they will file a lawsuit.  Do you have inside sources at either DL or DoJ?  If not, then what do you base your statements on (besides your opinion)?

because any carrier could have entered into that transaction. The DOJ required divestitures because of the fear that one carrier could control too much of the market. that part is no different from what the DOJ is requiring from AA-US.

What is completely different is that the DOJ do not dictate who could or could not bid on the divested slots. They did not create a preferential order of bidding and that has never happened with slot divestitures or the allocation of aviation resources based on a desire to control pricing.

The US domestic airline industry was deregulated in 1978. The US government is not allowed to create laws which dictate pricing in domestic markets.

The DOJ's stated intent to provide a preferential bidding system for B6 and WN will either be shown to be illegal or there will be a settlement just as there was with the AA/US lawsuit against the DOJ.
 
 

Again, I'm not a legal expert, but I don't see any gross miscarriage of justice here.  B6 and WN already lease a number of slots at these airports, why should they not have an opportunity to acquire them?  It seems to me you not only want DL to be the first in line, but also to have an opportunity to behave in an anti-competitive behavior you're ranting about. 
Then if you continue to read the statement, the remaining 88 + 24 slots as well as any B6 and WN decline to acquire will be offerred up for purchase.  So what's exactly is the problem?

 
 The issue is not the slots they already lease and which they have been given the opportunity to buy. The issue is with the slots beyond those. There would be a change in the competitive environment that would decrease competition if they could not buy the slots they already lease.

But if they have to bid on the remaining slots just like any other carrier, then there is no loss of competition because the only carrier that is losing the ability to operate those flights is AA/US.


The problem is that the DOJ is providing preferential bidding of the remaining slots beyond the ones they already offer.

The chance is very high that there will be no slots available to any carriers other than B6 and WN.

And again the principle of the matter is that the US government is prohibited from allocating national aviation resources based on a desire to obtain a desired price. Pricing must occur in the marketplace, not by government declaration or choice.

The same principle applies in every other industry. The US government cannot choose to award
any other national resource to a company (ie use of a highway) based on an intention to shape the market.


Thank you for the cordial discussion.

My expectation is that the part of the agreement providing preferential bidding for B6 and WN on the slots which are currently operated by WN will be removed and all carriers will be given the opportunity to bid on an equal basis.

I would never be shocked if b6 were to set up a shuttle dca to lga if n only if they can win more than enough slots... as for dl 717 or crj or may be e 170 or 190 series aircraft from dal to atl or slc or both

That is possible... the Shuttles have been losing market share to trains for quite some time. I'm not sure that it would be a great loss if both AA and DL decided the Shuttle market is worth maintaining but neither side will unilaterally do it.

The flip side is that the Shuttles use a lot of slots which could be reallocated for other purposes for significantly increased flights from LGA for AA/US to other destinations that are not served by either carrier and the same for DL from DCA.

 

[robbedagain]

What are spirit's chances of getting favorable slot in dca I knw they pulled out of dca bec of time issues n currently they have a nbr of flights out of bw also is it possible that vx will make attempts for say 3 or4 dca slots?

 

[WorldTraveler]

according to the DOJ's post, B6 and WN have preferential positions in the bidding process.

Even if the current settlement stands, the chances that any other carriers would be able to obtain bids are somewhere between slim and none.

 

[swamt]

I will take that response to mean that aren't willing to bet that the DOJ's statement that DL and UA will not be able to bid on the divested assets ON AN EQUAL BASIS as WN and B6 will stand.
 
Here, once again, is what the DOJ wrote.
 
"The Reagan National and LaGuardia slots will be sold under procedures approved by the department. Under the terms of the settlement, JetBlue at Reagan National and Southwest at LaGuardia will be given the opportunity to acquire the slots they currently lease from American. The remaining 88 slots at Reagan National and 24 slots at LaGuardia plus any JetBlue or Southwest decline to acquire will be grouped into bundles, taking into account specific slot times to ensure commercially viable and competitive patterns of service for the recipients of the divested slots. The parties will divest these slot bundles and all rights and interests in any gates and other ground facilities (e.g., ticket counters, baggage handling facilities, office space and loading bridges) as necessary to support the use of the purchased slots."
 
And thus it is very possible that WN will have to compete with not only B6 and other low fare carriers (where is mention of F9, NK etc?) as well as DL and UA. 
 
I'll be sure and let you know how it all turns out.

Here I'll hold your hand.:
 
Delta, United Unlikely to Get AMR Slots, U.S. Official Says
By David McLaughlin - Nov 14, 2013 10:49 AM CT

•  

Stock Chart for Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL)

Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) and United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL) are unlikely to win U.S. approval to get take-off and landing rights given up by American Airlines to settle a lawsuit over its merger with US Airways Group Inc., a Justice Department official said.
Renata Hesse, a senior official in the department’s antitrust division, reiterated that the proposed settlement, which will allow AMR Corp. (AAMRQ)’s American to merge with US Airways, is designed to introduce competition at key airports by low-cost carriers.
“Whether somebody wants to try to get assets, we’re not going to stop people from trying,” Hesse told reporters. “But it’s hard for me to see how Delta and United would qualify -- would meet that description.”
The airlines must give up 104 flight slots at Reagan National Airport in Washington and 34 at New York’s LaGuardia Airport, along with smaller divestitures at five other airports, under the proposed settlement reached with the Justice Department Nov. 12. The agreement must be approved by a federal judge.
The accord positions the carriers to complete their combination in December, bringing AMR out of bankruptcy.
 
What part of;  "“Whether somebody wants to try to get assets, we’re not going to stop people from trying,” Hesse told reporters. “But it’s hard for me to see how Delta and United would qualify -- would meet that description.”  Do you not understand.  No one will make that bet with you moron, they all already know that anyone can bid, but, don't see DL and UA getting awarded any, very simple English that you cannot comprehend and grasp...



 

 

[swamt]

according to the DOJ's post, B6 and WN have preferential positions in the bidding process.

Even if the current settlement stands, the chances that any other carriers would be able to obtain bids are somewhere between slim and none.

WOW!! You finally get it! Yea!  Now did Delta get approval to file a brief as did JB and SWA with the judge prior to any settlement coming down?  Didn't Delta know the briefs were to show how they could fairly compete if given those slots?  Of course they did.  Delta had their chance as well as UA, they both chose not to do so.  That's what you get for sitting and just watching from the sidelines.  At least JB and SWA was very successful in getting involved (because their company attorneys suggested for them too)  and proven how they could compete as well as lower air fares.  Now quit whining like DL is.
 
BTW the suit you say is coming from DL and UA against the gov.  IMO will get tossed as they had their chances to get involved, matter fact all airlines had until the 15th of Nov to file any and all briefs to the courts.  You snooze you loose...

 

[WorldTraveler]

you seem to be assuming that DL was told what the settlement would include and then file a brief saying whether they liked the settlement or not? are you truly clueless about the process? Neither are legal briefs bids to determining if they were interested in bidding for the slots.

You are way out of your league....



you also can't seem to comprehend that this sentence is the problem.

“But it’s hard for me to see how Delta and United would qualify -- would meet that description.”

Just what qualifications exist that would exclude DL and UA? Perhaps that the DOJ says that the assets have to go to B6 and WN first?

problem is that it is illegal for the government to be choosing winners and losers based on an intent to set pricing, whether you can grasp that concept or not. Qualifications, picking winners, regulating pricing... is all the same thing.

Don't you have a 717 to get ready for delivery to DL so it can be used against WN in Love Field service?

 

[robbedagain]

Swamt thats anti trust official as well as bill bauer n I believe anther doj official say they do not see how dl n ua could get it yes they had til nov 15 to file but I do knw wn went there n filed a friend of the court I dont knw if b6 did but I knw they publicly advocated for mefger as long as some slots were to be given up and that no kore than the current usairways 55 percent slots bein held. After the merger the new aa will have 57 percent wn n b6 will be the front runners but I wonder about westjet n I think they have a link up w dl not sure though

 

[blue collar]

Don't you have a 717 to get ready for delivery to DL so it can be used against WN in Love Field service?

First, SWA is paying our guys more to get those planes ready for DL, than DL will pay their guys to maintain them.
Second, I don't think SWA is too worried about a few DL flights to DAL, especially after SWA gets more DCA and LGA slots (that DL won't get).

 

[swamt]

you seem to be assuming that DL was told what the settlement would include and then file a brief saying whether they liked the settlement or not? are you truly clueless about the process? Neither are legal briefs bids to determining if they were interested in bidding for the slots.

You are way out of your league....



you also can't seem to comprehend that this sentence is the problem.

“But it’s hard for me to see how Delta and United would qualify -- would meet that description.”

Just what qualifications exist that would exclude DL and UA? Perhaps that the DOJ says that the assets have to go to B6 and WN first?

problem is that it is illegal for the government to be choosing winners and losers based on an intent to set pricing, whether you can grasp that concept or not. Qualifications, picking winners, regulating pricing... is all the same thing.

Don't you have a 717 to get ready for delivery to DL so it can be used against WN in Love Field service?

Not out of my league.  I didn't assume anything.  Simply put, your little DL had until the 15th to address the judge and explain and they chose not to.
 

“But it’s hard for me to see how Delta and United would qualify -- would meet that description.”---  Actually you do not comprehend WT.  This statement says nothing about DL or UA being able to turn in a bid.  All it says is that they don't see them qualifying.  Very simple English once again.
 
I have no clue about the full qualifications at hand, however, I believe they have already said LCC's, which Dl and UA are not.  This is really the only one I know about.  But it could also be that they all already know what will happen with the Southwest Affect.  But who really knows the real reasons.
 
The 717's you can have them.  But we appreciate DL taking their time to make the final decision so that we could add our 4th line prior to them being out of the fleet.

 

[WorldTraveler]

sorry, but if you, WN, or the DOJ thinks that filling out a legal brief or meeting some level of qualification was necessary for DL and UA to be able to bid for assets on an equal basis as B6 and WN, then you will be surprised and shocked at your and their lack of understanding of the law.

If the judge or DOJ was asking for what carriers wanted to be able to bid for the assets, then that is the question they should have raised.

All US carriers are qualified to access any part of the US aviation infrastructure including using slots and gates at US airports by virtue of being authorized for air transportation.

The case won't be decided today so I'll be willing to wait until there is more news. But I stand by my assertion that the settlement agreement will be revised to allow any US carrier to equally bid without any presupposition about who might or might not win the bidding cost on any basis other than the total value of the bid.

As for the 717s, DL is very happy to add them to the fleet. They will be used extensively to add more jobs for more DL people and they will also work very nicely at providing a competitive advantage that DL will have over its network carrier peers who continue to expect that customers will choose to fly them on regional jets over mainline jets given a choice.

 

[robbedagain]

By the time dl files if they actually do file a suit against the doj the us/aa will be closing on dec 9 and w the thanksgiving holidays 2 weeks away it doesnt give dl much time. Most airline analysts and antitust industy experts deemed the merger settlement a victory leaving the vast majority of their merger plans intact..... that was in the wall street journal wed nov 13

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL is well aware of the timeline for approval of the case.

There are legal mechanisms to ensure that law and order is adhered to in the case.

if the Justice dept. cannot get the case figured in the appropriate amount of time, then the merger will just have to be delayed.

it's been delayed already... it won't be rushed now.

The settlement was a victory for AA/US... but is considered a failure from an antitrust enforcement.

The objective of the Justice Dept. is to enforce US laws, including antitrust laws, not give easy victories to big business by setting aside the law in the process.

The settlement will be revised, robbed.

Take a break and gear yourself up for the possibility that your pay raise might just have to wait.
 
BTW, do you realize that the Attorney General himself is fighting a judge's ruling that allows the US House of Representatives to proceed with changes of contempt of Congress regarding a documents request for the Fast and Furious gun-running program?
 
DO you realize that scores of lawmakers from the President's own party say that his requirement that insurance companies re-enroll participants who lost their policies due to ObamaCare is not legal and are pushing their own rewrite of the law?.
 
The Justice Department isn't above the law as much as you and the rest of this board would like to think they are.

Suppose its more than just a little possible that the Justice Department will revise the settlement agreement than have yet one more case trotted into Congress showing how this administration has a long track record of making and breaking the laws as it goes along?

I mean an airline industry case is small potatoes compared to the gun running scandal the Justice dept. is trying to fend off.

 

[blue collar]

DL will be allowed to bid- they just won't win any of the LGA or DCA slots.
And for the off topic comment- I haven't heard that the President is 'requiring' ins companies to make the junk plans available again, just that he is allowing them to be covered under the ACA- so it removes the ins companies excuse that they can't offer the plans anymore.

 

[robbedagain]

No wt I have not... accrding to wsj front page n continue pg A-6 the merger by Most Anti trust and Airline experts is considered a victory.. now if u scroll to the pilots threadnin the usairways forum usa320 has put out a nbr of newspapers n news links but not of them seem to agree w ur assessment scndly I dont count on pay raises from the donkeys at us... n third what will u be like if n when the judge approves the deal early dec?