Survey shows Delta lags behind on "brand respect"
- Thread starter Kev3188
- Start date
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #152
If DL employees were riding coattails, why are they better off than their network peers?
you forgot to answer the question about the size of UA's ramp insourcing at ORD so I'll help you.
UA operates more than twice as many RJ flights at ORD as they operate mainline flights (453 RJ to 195 mainline). I surely hope they handle their RJ carriers since that is where flight activity is.
DL's RJ operation in ATL at 288 flights/day is larger than UA's MAINLINE operation at ORD. And DL employees still work 673 mainline flights/day.
Since EVERYONE has to change planes there, they need to have a big operation, ya know.
you go ahead and tell us about AirServ since you seem to be fixated on them and want to share it.
We're all ears - or eyes.
you forgot to answer the question about the size of UA's ramp insourcing at ORD so I'll help you.
UA operates more than twice as many RJ flights at ORD as they operate mainline flights (453 RJ to 195 mainline). I surely hope they handle their RJ carriers since that is where flight activity is.
DL's RJ operation in ATL at 288 flights/day is larger than UA's MAINLINE operation at ORD. And DL employees still work 673 mainline flights/day.
Since EVERYONE has to change planes there, they need to have a big operation, ya know.
you go ahead and tell us about AirServ since you seem to be fixated on them and want to share it.
We're all ears - or eyes.
blue collar
Veteran
- Mar 17, 2008
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WN never went BK, so they never lost their pay/benefits and haven't been having to play catch up. The unionized airlines are using the BK CBAs to their advantage. So DL's been giving pay raises, good for them.
Since you keep bringing WN into it, which is better; to have higher compensation, or to get bigger pay raises (but less compensation)? I
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #154
no one should have to make that choice... have the best pay possible and if it isn't above everyone else keep getting the biggest pay raises until it is. That is where DL's employees are now.
WN hasn't gone BK because they started business decades after the legacies, don't (or didn't) have the legacy obligations the legacy carriers did/do, and built a better business model that helps them remain profitable better than the network carriers.
I commend them.. but the legacy carriers have all repeatedly cnosiderd the possibility of changing their business models to be more like WN and all determined that it isn't possible to do so. Thus, they adapt.
WN hasn't gone BK because they started business decades after the legacies, don't (or didn't) have the legacy obligations the legacy carriers did/do, and built a better business model that helps them remain profitable better than the network carriers.
I commend them.. but the legacy carriers have all repeatedly cnosiderd the possibility of changing their business models to be more like WN and all determined that it isn't possible to do so. Thus, they adapt.
OP
Kev3188
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- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #155
Fact is, for decades- up to/through the present day, DL employees have been riding the coattails of union employees, and had those same people fight their battles for them.
You didn't ask about flight activity/numbers.
Great. I'm all for it. Never said otherwise. It'd be nice if a huge chunk of those employees had access to things like benefits, vacations, & raises too. Hundreds currently don't.
You're the one that has been going on and on about how much DL insources. Why not tell the "whole truth" and share just how much they farm out. I only used AirServ, since you brought up NYC. You can include DGS too, if you'd like. Same story with whatever the name of the firm is that's taking over bagroom work in JFK.
robbedagain
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- Oct 13, 2003
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so in a place like jfk for ex dl employees wont be working the make up area it be dgs or whoever the chicken sh!t outfit is? and hows their benes and pay compared to DL mainline... and as for the survey kev you said that theyre working on it for both inside n out?? and it sounds like its a heck of a large scale thing if you will
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #158
Kev,
the "riding the coattails" argument is a nice soundbite for the labor movement but it is COMPLETELY unsupported by any sort of data.
If DL employees were riding the coattails of their union counterparts, DL employees would have to be/have been making LESS THAN their union counterparts. That has almost NEVER happened for any consistent period of time.
You can look at the data here but there is no basis for arguing that DL employees are riding the coattails of their union counterparts. If anything, DL employees are PULLING their network carrier peers' salaries UP and creating pressure on those other airline mgmt. teams to give their employees what DL employees have.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html
I'm glad that you are committed to your cause and I want you to keep believing in it, but I can't let you say publicly that DL employees are being PULLED UP by labor unions at other airlines when the evidence clearly supports the complete opposite.
As for the size of UA's operation, my primary intent is to know if their handling is for their entire operation or if it constitutes some small subset of the operation, as US does at CLT.
When you talk about union aided job security, explain for me how UA has managed to build a network in their home and the 2nd busiest airport in the world where mainline is less than 200 flights/day yet regional operations are over 2X as large. And even if the ramp and passenger service (you didn't mention that but I guess that is also UA employees), the crews are definitely not UA employees. How have the unions at the world's largest airline allowed their employer to outsource such a huge part of their flying in such a large market? And the reality of the size of UA's RJ operation at ORD is precisely the reason why they don't need their own employees in scores of small and medium sized cities around the country.
I'd be most happy if all of the people who touch DL customer's bags, handle their reservation, serve their Coke would all be DL employees but the simple reality is that DL's level of outsourcing is as good as if not better than at other carriers - and it is moving in the RIGHT direction for DL employees - completely different from what is happening at other airlines, including UA.
Talking about DGS and AirServ is great but you can't talk about them without talking about what is happening at other airlines... and esp. the fact that many foreign airlines don't have their own BW staff at most airports, if at all.
Talking about the competitive situation WRT labor is just as important as it is about route performance. It means nothing to say that airline X outsources Y amount at Z station while also failing to consider the "other side of the story" by other airlines.
BTW, and I do hope you don't take it the wrong way, I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed the spirited interaction we have had on this thread - along with 700 and Josh and robbed and others. It is indeed possible to have different opinions, acknowledge the contributions each other makes, and still respectfully stand up for one's own position.
and robbed, the pay and bennies for DL's contractors in the bag room are certainly better than the maintenance outsourcing that US uses in foreign countries - at a far higher rate than DL uses for maintenance.
let's have more of it, please.
the "riding the coattails" argument is a nice soundbite for the labor movement but it is COMPLETELY unsupported by any sort of data.
If DL employees were riding the coattails of their union counterparts, DL employees would have to be/have been making LESS THAN their union counterparts. That has almost NEVER happened for any consistent period of time.
You can look at the data here but there is no basis for arguing that DL employees are riding the coattails of their union counterparts. If anything, DL employees are PULLING their network carrier peers' salaries UP and creating pressure on those other airline mgmt. teams to give their employees what DL employees have.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html
I'm glad that you are committed to your cause and I want you to keep believing in it, but I can't let you say publicly that DL employees are being PULLED UP by labor unions at other airlines when the evidence clearly supports the complete opposite.
As for the size of UA's operation, my primary intent is to know if their handling is for their entire operation or if it constitutes some small subset of the operation, as US does at CLT.
When you talk about union aided job security, explain for me how UA has managed to build a network in their home and the 2nd busiest airport in the world where mainline is less than 200 flights/day yet regional operations are over 2X as large. And even if the ramp and passenger service (you didn't mention that but I guess that is also UA employees), the crews are definitely not UA employees. How have the unions at the world's largest airline allowed their employer to outsource such a huge part of their flying in such a large market? And the reality of the size of UA's RJ operation at ORD is precisely the reason why they don't need their own employees in scores of small and medium sized cities around the country.
I'd be most happy if all of the people who touch DL customer's bags, handle their reservation, serve their Coke would all be DL employees but the simple reality is that DL's level of outsourcing is as good as if not better than at other carriers - and it is moving in the RIGHT direction for DL employees - completely different from what is happening at other airlines, including UA.
Talking about DGS and AirServ is great but you can't talk about them without talking about what is happening at other airlines... and esp. the fact that many foreign airlines don't have their own BW staff at most airports, if at all.
Talking about the competitive situation WRT labor is just as important as it is about route performance. It means nothing to say that airline X outsources Y amount at Z station while also failing to consider the "other side of the story" by other airlines.
BTW, and I do hope you don't take it the wrong way, I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed the spirited interaction we have had on this thread - along with 700 and Josh and robbed and others. It is indeed possible to have different opinions, acknowledge the contributions each other makes, and still respectfully stand up for one's own position.
and robbed, the pay and bennies for DL's contractors in the bag room are certainly better than the maintenance outsourcing that US uses in foreign countries - at a far higher rate than DL uses for maintenance.
let's have more of it, please.
FrugalFlyerv2.0
Veteran
- Oct 29, 2003
- 2,931
- 3,341
Dude,
While from time to time you do provide insightful information, you're way too sensitive about DL. It's clouding your judgement.
Seek professional help. Get some medication.
Get laid.
Smoke a cigar and and relax.
BTW: when you're talking about "never seeing anything like it before" or "bias" are you looking in the mirror and describing yourself?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #160
Whether you get it or not, there are way too many things that are said on this site and others as if they are gospel. If there is no support or legitimate evidence for what is said, it is an opinion, which like a particular orifice, everyone has but the mere existence certainly provides no level of superiority over another.
There is no sensitivity for me in calling someone out because they are off on some six decade old tangent laden with opinions that has no basis in current reality which is where most of us live. I'm sorry if you are unable to distinguish holding someone accountable to some level of intellectual accountability from a psychological defect.
There is no sensitivity for me in calling someone out because they are off on some six decade old tangent laden with opinions that has no basis in current reality which is where most of us live. I'm sorry if you are unable to distinguish holding someone accountable to some level of intellectual accountability from a psychological defect.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,959
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We dream of that moment, and then you have to ruin it by following up with another four or five pages of posts...
How DL ever let you resign is beyond me...
blue collar
Veteran
- Mar 17, 2008
- 1,241
- 901
You and I both Kev. Then again, we don't have DL colored glasses on..
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
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- Banned
- #165
and 700 you can't seem to want to admit that the entire airline industry has seen their wages be trashed by 9/11 and the resulting restructuring of the industry.
What you REFUSE to admit is that DL has done a far better job of restoring wages than any of the other legacy carriers, including the ones that you had anything to do with in a labor leadership capacity.
You absolutely can't stand that there be any basis of comparison between DL and the rest of their legacy peers because then the entire basis of your claims for the value of unions is devoid of any reality.
And you, E, came parading in here with all of your decades old history of the airline industry while trying to explain branding. Problem is you couldn't and still can't substantiate any of it; it is nothing more than your opinions about what you think of the airline industry and supported by no real facts. If there were real facts, you could find them.
The only thing that is real is that you want to portray DL as an airline six decades old while basking in the glamour that was American Airlines in its prime. That day has past and it is precisely because of people at AA who still think AA is invincible that they have been relegated to 3rd place in NYC, where their headquarters once stood. Now, the AA you want to remember is being taken over by a low cost carrier from Arizona and America West leadership has the full support of AA's creditors because you and they couldn't possibly accept for 10 years that all of the things that I said on here about AA's revenue generation problems were true.
Let's get right to the heart of the issue, boys and girls. 700 is going to singularly throw out data points while failing to present the complete story because if he did it would be completely apparent why DL employees have CONSISTENTLY said they have no interest WHATSOEVER in further unionization at their company - and the efforts of 700 himself would be shown to have accomplished nothing.
And then we have E who has fought the reality of AA's situation for 10 years and now wants to lock DL into a decades long past which the survey didn't say and which he can't seem to find any real data to say DL's customers believe.
Carry on with your dreams before the sun comes up....
What you REFUSE to admit is that DL has done a far better job of restoring wages than any of the other legacy carriers, including the ones that you had anything to do with in a labor leadership capacity.
You absolutely can't stand that there be any basis of comparison between DL and the rest of their legacy peers because then the entire basis of your claims for the value of unions is devoid of any reality.
And you, E, came parading in here with all of your decades old history of the airline industry while trying to explain branding. Problem is you couldn't and still can't substantiate any of it; it is nothing more than your opinions about what you think of the airline industry and supported by no real facts. If there were real facts, you could find them.
The only thing that is real is that you want to portray DL as an airline six decades old while basking in the glamour that was American Airlines in its prime. That day has past and it is precisely because of people at AA who still think AA is invincible that they have been relegated to 3rd place in NYC, where their headquarters once stood. Now, the AA you want to remember is being taken over by a low cost carrier from Arizona and America West leadership has the full support of AA's creditors because you and they couldn't possibly accept for 10 years that all of the things that I said on here about AA's revenue generation problems were true.
Let's get right to the heart of the issue, boys and girls. 700 is going to singularly throw out data points while failing to present the complete story because if he did it would be completely apparent why DL employees have CONSISTENTLY said they have no interest WHATSOEVER in further unionization at their company - and the efforts of 700 himself would be shown to have accomplished nothing.
And then we have E who has fought the reality of AA's situation for 10 years and now wants to lock DL into a decades long past which the survey didn't say and which he can't seem to find any real data to say DL's customers believe.
Carry on with your dreams before the sun comes up....
