SUPPORTING THE PILOTS

[l8rd8r]

The AFA bylaws and our contract have NOTHING to do with each other. Me too or otherwise has NO bearing on what has already been settled....DOH for the flight attendants.

Rather than bring that up again, let's focus on what can been done for the pilots that got royaly F$%#KED!!!!!!!

OK...I agree but, what can be done? Why do I hear that ALPA can reject this? If so many say its a done deal.

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

It shouldn't. The AA unions did those things unilaterally and selfishly.

I love this selective memory loss.The TWU and the IAM did go to binding arbitration.

The APA and APFA shafted their TWA counterparts, the TWU lived with the arbitration ruling.

The arbitrator made his decision and the former TWA people have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to have the decision overturned because they didn't get what they wanted.

Their most recent attempt (This past winter) was dismissed as well.

The Title III seniority list in the NYC one station complex is well populated by former TWA people.So many in fact, the joke is the company is going to start painting the ground equipment red so they feel more at home.

 

[JetMonkey]

Why should ANYONE lose their time with a company? Especially as seniority driven industry!

If we merged with Delta, would you have wanted to be stapled or slotted with 14,000 f/as??

I agree that it is not the east fault and not the west with the pilot issues, but anything but DOH is just NOT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!! PERIOD

You obviously don't know about "windfalls". Let me edcate you alittle about this preticular situation. You should have a look at the proposed lists each merger committee presented to the arbitrator. There was such a hugh disparity of age that it was almost comical what the east looked like. The DOH list from the east (all it actually was really), had furloughes on top of ACTIVE captains. At no time in seniority merger history has this ever taken place or even seen until now, how far-fetched was that? You can't have a list that is so lop-sided as that, hince a "windfall" DOH I'm sure can work in certain mergers, but not this one! You need to become more familar with the facts before you rant off about DOH or nothing.

 

[flynomore]

You obviously don't know about "windfalls". Let me edcate you alittle about this preticular situation. You should have a look at the proposed lists each merger committee presented to the arbitrator. There was such a hugh disparity of age that it was almost comical what the east looked like. The DOH list from the east (all it actually was really), had furloughes on top of ACTIVE captains. At no time in seniority merger history has this ever taken place or even seen until now, how far-fetched was that? You can't have a list that is so lop-sided as that, hince a "windfall" DOH I'm sure can work in certain mergers, but not this one! You need to become more familar with the facts before you rant off about DOH or nothing.

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Not so. Look at the conditions and restrictions from the AAA (US Air) proposal:

4. Positions as captain on the B737/A320 aircraft, or replacement aircraft, shall be allocated as with the B767/757-D captain positions, except that the quotas shall be 914 and 782 for the pre-merger US Airways and America West pilots, respectively, and the ratio for positions above or below the combined quota of 1,696 shall be five to-four. A worksheet for the allocation accounting on these positions is attached as Appendix B.

Don't you let the facts get in your way either. This section would have allowed east pilots to gain east attrition and west pilots to gain their own. Growth or reduction was to be allocated on a % basis and the no bump/no flush would keep FOs where they are. The award as written truly rewards all the AWA FOs with all the prizes. And that sir is the problem for the east guys.

 

[Twicebaked]

OK...I agree but, what can be done? Why do I hear that ALPA can reject this? If so many say its a done deal.

Are you talking AFA or APLA.

AFA IS A DONE DEAL.

ALPA I am not sure what is being said. I am not a pilot!

I would assume that the arbitrator made a RECOMENDATION...I don't know.

Can the East pilots do something about this? I sure hope so.

Just like in courts...you can file and appeal. Maybe that is what is being said

I DUNNO???

You obviously don't know about "windfalls". Let me edcate you alittle about this preticular situation. You should have a look at the proposed lists each merger committee presented to the arbitrator. There was such a hugh disparity of age that it was almost comical what the east looked like. The DOH list from the east (all it actually was really), had furloughes on top of ACTIVE captains. At no time in seniority merger history has this ever taken place or even seen until now, how far-fetched was that? You can't have a list that is so lop-sided as that, hince a "windfall" DOH I'm sure can work in certain mergers, but not this one! You need to become more familar with the facts before you rant off about DOH or nothing.

Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear. I was refering to the F/A seniority and a post from a F/A about not agreeing with DOH.

But, I agree with DOH all the way anyway. Furloughees??? Well, that I am not sure how I feel about it.

Technically, they are laid off people. I am not sure if they should jump in front of active people.

Don't shoot me for that one...I just don't know how to feel about it.

 

[Zarah]

Flew with an F/O today who was recalled after the "snapshot" was taken placing him under the most junior West pilot.

 

[DCAflyer]

Wow, I think I'd better go get a Catscan. I, for once, agree with 700UW.

Twicebaked: Arbitration can be either binding or non-binding. Binding is final, non-appealable. The arbitrator does not even have to follow legal precedent. Binding arbitration must be agreed to between the parties. FWIU, this ALPA arbitration is, in fact, binding. That is where ALPA really screwed up. ALPA's bylaws establish a cockamamie system for seniority intergration, subject to interpretations and a myriad of independent intervening criteria, to be decided by a single arbitrator, whose findings are final (and in this case, will be felt for decades to come).

What ALPA should have done is require in their bylaws that a panel of three arbitrators decide the case... one arbitrator picked by US ALPA, one picked by AWA ALPA, and a third picked by the two already-selected arbitrators. That way, if one's findings are off base, the others can reel him in. This was a colosol failure on ALPA's part to not recognize that massive injustices can occur at the whim of an arbitrator.

As far as supporing the pilots in some work action, sick out, or whatever, I just wouldn't do it. Not because I don't sympathize, but because (1) history tells us they wouldn't do it for any other work group; (2) this ruling was based on rules that ALPA itself put into place; (3) it's already binding and there is nothing anyone can do to reverse it.

 

[JetMonkey]

==========================================================
Not so. Look at the conditions and restrictions from the AAA (US Air) proposal:

4. Positions as captain on the B737/A320 aircraft, or replacement aircraft, shall be allocated as with the B767/757-D captain positions, except that the quotas shall be 914 and 782 for the pre-merger US Airways and America West pilots, respectively, and the ratio for positions above or below the combined quota of 1,696 shall be five to-four. A worksheet for the allocation accounting on these positions is attached as Appendix B.

Don't you let the facts get in your way either. This section would have allowed east pilots to gain east attrition and west pilots to gain their own. Growth or reduction was to be allocated on a % basis and the no bump/no flush would keep FOs where they are. The award as written truly rewards all the AWA FOs with all the prizes. And that sir is the problem for the east guys.

Since the beginning, the east have been try to recoup all that they have lost at the west expense, and their proposed list plus the debacle over the 757 distrubution, and the 190 resolution proves it. The proposal would've put ALL but a whopping 5 furloughees on top of me, that is NOT what my expected attrition would've been. I am dissapointed also that they have suffered so much but, at no fault of my own did I have anything to do with what put them there to begin with. And I should not have to pay for it with my career being stagnated more than it already has.

 

[aquagreen73s]

What ALPA should have done is require in their bylaws that a panel of three arbitrators decide the case... one arbitrator picked by US ALPA, one picked by AWA ALPA, and a third picked by the two already-selected arbitrators. That way, if one's findings are off base, the others can reel him in. This was a colosol failure on ALPA's part to not recognize that massive injustices can occur at the whim of an arbitrator.

That's pretty much the system already in place except it's better in the sense that there is one arbitrator and two pilot neutrals. Each side selects its neutral and both sides select the arbitrator through a strike process - much like jury selection. In this case, it was a unanimous decision as to the result. Some might think it's "cockamame", but it's the system which was implemented via proper ALPA national channels. East could have at any time challenged the policy or tried to amend it back to the way it was. I don't know if they did, but chances are their efforts would have been unsuccessful. If the results of this arbitration appear bizarre, it's mostly because of the nature of the East list to begin with. There isn't an airline in America which resembles East. Heck, I doubt even Aeroflot has it where the bottom guy has been with the company for 19 years. As strange as the arbitration award may appear, it's not the fault of the process. Rather, it's a natural result given the facts particular to East. There is no dangerous precedent set at all with this because there never has been and probably never will be an airline with such a screwed up list as East's. Never before has an airline furloughed 40% and lived to tell about it. By a sheer stroke of good fortune at the final hour, however, East did live to tell about it.

 

[Twicebaked]

Wow, I think I'd better go get a Catscan. I, for once, agree with 700UW.

Twicebaked: Arbitration can be either binding or non-binding. Binding is final, non-appealable. The arbitrator does not even have to follow legal precedent. Binding arbitration must be agreed to between the parties. FWIU, this ALPA arbitration is, in fact, binding. That is where ALPA really screwed up. ALPA's bylaws establish a cockamamie system for seniority intergration, subject to interpretations and a myriad of independent intervening criteria, to be decided by a single arbitrator, whose findings are final (and in this case, will be felt for decades to come).

DC...thanks for shedding light one the situation. As I stated, I don't have a clue about how things work on their end.

 

[prechilill]

By a sheer stroke of good fortune at the final hour, however, East did live to tell about it.

Words worth remembering...

 

[flynomore]

The proposal would've put ALL but a whopping 5 furloughees on top of me, that is NOT what my expected attrition would've been. quote]
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If your bids are the result of HP attrition and growth, then how in the world would your sentence have any effect on your expected attrition?

The only certainty in this job is that of the people ahead of you on the list: some will die, some will lose their medical, a very few will quit/be fired, and the rest will retire.

The Powerball prize you guys got ensures that every HP fo gains all of the east attrition to the tune of some 850 lost positions. Crying that U would liquidate does not matter since it did not happen.

AAA pilots need to tell their reps to stand down the JNC now. We have nothing left to lose and nothing in common.

 

[CV580ETOPS]

And I've NEVER seen a more OPPORTUNISTIC BUNCH THAN THE WEST PILOT GROUP RIGHT NOW!

I'm a mere furloughed f/a but whatever I can do to support the East pilot group...let me know...this is morally and fundamentally wrong...and anyone from the west side that disagrees should realize this on a purely humanitarian level.

Another bleeding heart bimbo heard from. <_<

WRONG. It was UAL that spearheaded the change. You are, indeed, a tremendous "asset." This is so wrong I think you are intentional in your aim. AAA has NEVER been associated with this change, in any way. NEVER.

Greeter.

But they are responsible for UAL pushing ALPA to remove it from the constitution and bylaws by shooting off their mouths regarding how senior they were compared to the UAL pilots and "how I'm gonna look real good flying that 747 Chicago to Tokyo once a month" while US and UA were talking about merging several years ago. I guess this came back to haunt them big time.If the average USAir pilot has an achillees heel its the fact that he/she doesn't know when to keep their mouths shut.Had they kept quite,DOH Might still have been part of the unions bylaws today and possibly they wouldn't find themselves in the bind that they are in with the America West people.

 

[ggiby]

At some point when you become "senior" and another airline buys you.... you could be put at the bottom of the seniority list.... if you are taken by a non AFA airline...
the West people are so green behind the ears.... and don't have a clue what could happen during there tenure as a airline employee.... its a ride of a lifetime if you choose to ride it...
The East Pilots got screwed yet for the millionth time...
So lets se...
lost their Pension.... West still has their's...
Lost their Job......... (speaking of the laid off guys...w/o chance of comming back making a living...)
Lost their seat..... will yank gear forever.... for a guy 20 years their junior..... would be ok to yank gear if could get paid what he is due...

 

[songbirdstew]

Why should ANYONE lose their time with a company? Especially as seniority driven industry!

If we merged with Delta, would you have wanted to be stapled or slotted with 14,000 f/as??

I agree that it is not the east fault and not the west with the pilot issues, but anything but DOH is just NOT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!! PERIOD

The captain on the trip I am on right now has two friends who are now at AW. The first friend was hired 4 years AFTER our captain was hired by Piedmont. The second friend was hired by AW 2 years after our captain was hired by Piedmont.
Friend #1 will now be approx. 1000 numbers senior to our captain, Friend # 2 is now approx. 400 numbers senior.
No matter whose fault it is, there had to have been a better way. As far as whoever said that we should be sensitive to our pilots state of mind right now. I have to agree. My F/O will NEVER see the left seat and is so pi$$ed he can hardly talk about it. Nothing like watching all your loyalty and dreams be flushed away.
Just my opinion.