Small Plane crash

[chipmunn]

[SPAN class=t]Air Midwest to Inspect Elevator Controls on Raytheon/Beech 1900D Aircraft[BR][/SPAN][BR][A href="http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030109/nyth173_1.html"]http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030109/nyth173_1.html[/A][BR]

 

[chipmunn]

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[H1][FONT face="Times New Roman"][A href="http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/01/09/plane.crash/index.html"][FONT size=3]http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/01/09/plane.crash/index.html[/FONT][/A][FONT size=3] [/FONT][/FONT][/SPAN][/SPAN][BR][/FONT][/SPAN][/SPAN][/H1][/H1]

 

[autofixer]

It is being reported here in GSO, that the load plan called for 26 bags to be loaded. When the flight was about to be actually loaded, the ramp agent was given a new plan that said to load 32 bags. The agent approached the captain with the discrepancy and she said that the 32 bags were "ok".

It is being reported that the captain had 1800 hours total time and the f/o around 700.

The lawyers are going to have a field day with this...brace yourselves. I know this is normal every day happenings, but the lawyers can twist it and spin it until it is something else.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

CLT Paper says Captain had 3000+ hours and the F/O had 1100, Autofixers numbers are time in type.

 

[767jetz]

Anyone who has ever flown a 1900 knows that when it's loaded to max weight with 19 pax, it always "LOOKS" heavy. The plane will taxi with what looks like an unusually nose high attitude. This doesn't mean it was out of CG.

I'm not saying it wasn't, only that no one could tell just by the way it "LOOKS."

Also, it is possible that by using standard weights, the plane was legally within limits, but actually out of limits with respect to actual weights.

In my opinion this has always been a danger that needs to be addressed. Standard weights help save the companies money because it reduces time, and avoids having to bump passengers or bags. However, the smaller the plane, the less margin for error when operating at the designed limits.

Unfortunately, sometimes people use the excuse, "we've done it this way for years and haven't had any problems."

 

[D3o2r8kdrvr]

CG or a catastrophic failure (or a combination of the two), it is my hope that the grieving family members find hope, strength, and a good attorney. Sue the ever living piss out the MESA/Air Midwest division. Get those bottom feeders off our property before more innocent people get hurt and the U logo takes a beating.

To the crew: May the warmth of the heavens welcome you and may your souls be blessed by God. You will not be forgotten.

 

[autofixer]

ONTHESTREET, My local new source, as usual, stands corrected. My only point is, this is what the public is hearing on a daily dosage.

 

[1ab]

I am a travel agent. It's not that the flying public doesn't already know, especially with the one decent ramp agent and his attempts to stop the flight before everyone died, and resulting publicity, but may I have your permission to send your post to EVERY client I have?
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[/blockquote]
Since you are a travel agent stick with what you know...the decent ramp agent informed his supervisor who informed the captain who said the number of bags were ok..The agent did his job by notifying management and the captain.

There was no negligence here on the part of the ramp crew or the flight crew...

 

[1ab]

[blockquote]
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On 1/8/2003 9:17:51 PM flyin2low wrote:

The accident was caused by overloading the cargo bins (2) beyond a safe weight. Nothing had to shift anywhere to create this scenario. They plane merely rotated at V1 and kept on going until it stalled, and then the subsequent asymetric rolling and pitch moments did their deed.

The airlines have a program to "average" all bags loaded. USAir uses 24lbs/bag. Now we all know that most checked bags are nearly 40-70 lbs in reality. With small aircraft, it is very easy to go over the limit without filling the compartment up. Most rampers are not trained very well in this area and continue to load up until there is no more space. Then they will help the crew and cust service by lying about what the real bag count is, to get it out........
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[/blockquote]
No doubt you are aware that on every release for a flight the dispatcher after figuring fuel puts restriction on how many passengers to bags the flight can go with..
Pilots are known to make adjudgement depending on the amount of children in the count..
Since I work for Piedmont who is in charge of ramp duties in CLT I can say we we are trained to make the adjustment for bags to passengers..and we load bags on plane with regards to restrictions on the release.

 

[DHC8Driver]

[blockquote]
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On 1/9/2003 8:25:42 PM Trip Confirmed wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 1/8/2003 9:17:51 PM flyin2low wrote:

The accident was caused by overloading the cargo bins (2) beyond a safe weight. Nothing had to shift anywhere to create this scenario. They plane merely rotated at V1 and kept on going until it stalled, and then the subsequent asymetric rolling and pitch moments did their deed.

The airlines have a program to "average" all bags loaded. USAir uses 24lbs/bag. Now we all know that most checked bags are nearly 40-70 lbs in reality. With small aircraft, it is very easy to go over the limit without filling the compartment up. Most rampers are not trained very well in this area and continue to load up until there is no more space. Then they will help the crew and cust service by lying about what the real bag count is, to get it out........
----------------
[/blockquote]


I am a travel agent. It's not that the flying public doesn't already know, especially with the one decent ramp agent and his attempts to stop the flight before everyone died, and resulting publicity, but may I have your permission to send your post to EVERY client I have?
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[/blockquote]

flyin2low, you are being completely irresponsible to proclaim that you KNOW what caused the crash. You don't have anything more than an uneducated guess based on what?
News reports? Most of details that the media put out for most of the day was wrong., Your own opinion? How can you form an opinion that you call fact when you probably don't know the critical details that would allow you to form such an opinion.
Second, I disagree that most bags are 40-70 LBS, sure there are heavier bags than the 25 lb average bag weight, there are lighter ones also. That is why they call it AVERAGE bag weights. Tell me, since you seem to think you are an expert, how many of the 32 or so bags in the bin were planeside checked. Is is your belief that people walk about with 40-70 lb carryons? Unless you have factual information on the composition of bags in the aft compartment, you can't have a clue as to whether the compartment was severly overloaded.
Next the "small planes are easy to overload theory" We are only talking about 30 some bags here. Even if every single bag was 50% overweight, which I seriously doubt, we are talking an overload of approx 400 lbs. I don't know the balance details of the B1900, I admit that, but I don't think a 400 LB overload in the back, would cause such an aft cg that full nose down elavator and nose down trim couldn't lower the nose. It would probably decrease the longitudinal stablility enough to make the aircraft very pitch sensitive, but that works both ways.
Lastly, I am sure that bag numbers have been falsified, however it is my experience that it is a rarity, that if too many bags are scheduled for the flight, they go out on the next flight. I don't know too many pilots that would say load up the compartment and falsify the paperwork. That is not "helping" the crew as you contend. It is hurting the crew.
Your remarks seem to imply that underhanded or unsafe procedures are the norm, and I assure you they are not. At least not at my airline.

 

[DHC8Driver]

TADRJ wrote:

You have my permission to send this one out. I have had to leave people and/or bags off many times due to the flight numbers showing unacceptable. There was no help involved from the ground crew or flight crew. It was my option to either try to get volunteers to stay behind or to leave bags if no one wanted to wait for a later flight and be compensated. X number of passengers with X number of bags and thats all.
I'm glad someone already has the "real" reason for the crash figured out.
----------------------
It is not the responsibility of the flightcrew to figure out how to rectify and overweight situation, only to tell the appropriate people how much weight needs to be off loaded. Your CSA supervisor should have a procedure to determine how this is done. First nonrevs are off loaded, then revenue standby, mabey next would be standby bags from an earlier flight. The flight crew does not have access to all this information, to determine exactly who stays and who goes.
Many times there is cargo that needs to ride, kinda like a must ride. I, as the Capt can't just decide to offload it. It is the Captains responsibiliy to figure out how much payload has to be removed. It is the CSA and ramp supervisors resonsibility to figure out what payload, whether people or bags or cargo or a combination of the above, will have the least impact on the overall operation.
It is the flight crews job to notify both CSA and ramp supervisors to let them know of the overweight condition.
If your supervisor is sending you out to deal with the problem yourself, then you have a problem supervisor, not problem flightcrew.

 

[tadjr]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/10/2003 1:39:34 PM DHC8Driver wrote:
[P]TADRJ wrote:[BR][BR]I have had to leave people and/or bags off many times due to the flight numbers showing unacceptable. There was no help involved from the ground crew or flight crew. It was my option to either try to get volunteers to stay behind or to leave bags if no one wanted to wait for a later flight and be compensated. X number of passengers with X number of bags and thats all. [BR][BR]----------------------[BR]It is not the responsibility of the flightcrew to figure out how to rectify and overweight situation, only to tell the appropriate people how much weight needs to be off loadedIf your supervisor is sending you out to deal with the problem yourself, then you have a problem supervisor, not problem flightcrew.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I wasnt complaining about the flight crew not telling me what to do. I am capable of deciding how many vols to get or what bags to leave off and prefer not to have supervisory help, thank you. My help reference, that I think you misinterpreted, had to do with someones accusation that the crew and/or ramp guys would fudge the numbers to make them work out where leaving people or bags wasnt necessary. They havent helped me in that regard. I've left people and/or bags off many times. Nonrevs and jumpseaters (OA) first, then volunteers with their bags (double bonus points), then bags, then passengers. We even try to go so far as to match bags so the fewest people are inconvenienced with claims at the other end. [/P]

 

[DHC8Driver]

TADJR:
My help reference, that I think you misinterpreted, had to do with someones accusation that the crew and/or ramp guys would fudge the numbers to make them work out where leaving people or bags wasnt necessary. They havent helped me in that regard.
_______
I did misinterpret,
I rescind my entire post.
We are on the same page.

 

[airmac]

D3o2r8kdrvr
Member

Total Posts: 13
Last Post: 1/10/2003
Member Since: 12/13/2002
Member #: 1426

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Reports are surfacing that the CVR on #5481 indicated unusual elevator commands on the flight into CLT prior to the accident as discussed by the crew.

Mesa Air Group has for years been known to pressure air crews to fly aircraft regardless of possible safety issues. If this crew was aware of a possible a/c maintenance issue, and because the Corporate culture influenced them to fly the equipment, than US Airways has a very serious issue on their hands.

I would like to challenge the mainline pilot group, wholly owned pilot group, and MESA MEC to demand that this situation is reviewed before more innocent passengers are put in harms way. It is possible that the MESA company culture contributed to this accident.

DEMAND ANSWERS BEFORE MORE LIVES ARE LOST. MESA IS NOT GOOD FOR US AIRWAYS, NOR IS IT GOOD FOR THE INDUSTRY.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

Piney,

Accidents are discussed among the pilot groups for the simple reason of "It could have been me" If I can find out why someone else could not save the aircraft, that gives me a better chance of surviving if something similar happens.

Most of our best safety procedures and training are DIRECTLY created out of accident analysis. We go over accidents in detail in recurrent training and figure out the best way for it to not happen again. During our 6 month simulator checks we often run an accident profile. For example, set up the simulator to act like an accident aircraft did, and then train it until the aircraft is saved.

By the way Sh*%t does happen, It is our job to make sure it does not happen twice!!

It does appear that possibly someone screwed up the last time that aircraft was in maint. The data recorder lends evidence to that effect, according to the NTSB briefings.