Small Plane crash

[ONTHESTREET]

Continued from above,

For instance, After flight 427 crashed, most in the aviation community had a good idea why it happened. At the time there were no procedures in place to deal with the rudder hard over problem. The pilot groups took it upon themselves to develop a way to combat the "Unsaveable" aircraft.

Because of this every airline had already been running a training program to combat the problem a full two years before the NTSB got around to producing their final report. I know of at least two 737's that did not crash during that two years because of this training. The rudder problem was still there but it was no longer a "fatal" problem.

I have seen ( and in my youth I was) a young pilot be pushed into making a bad decision by company executives and non flying managers etc.. I do not know if that happened here but just by discussing the possibility that it happened, might mean the difference between the correct decision or not.

When I was a brand new Captain I was once pushed into flying with a fuel load that I did not like. I made it that time but I said never again. The next time a dispatcher told me that I could not have anymore fuel because we would have to leave baggage (Mail) I held my ground, I was threatened with a visit from the Chief pilot etc... but I got my fuel.

By the time we deviated around the level 4 thunderstorms, that the dispatcher said would be gone, and had to hold for 45 minutes before landing, we had burned 800 lbs of that fuel that the dispatcher assured us we would not need!

By the way, I never heard from the Chief pilot.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

There is a great publication called Aviation Safety. It is published Monthly and is only about 20 pages. To be honest I cannot remember the publisher (Can look it up)

It is based on the simple premise of reporting the raw NTSB intitial reports. Just the simple facts of accidents. Time, day, type of A/C, pilot ratings, how long the plane had been in the air etc. It does not speculate as to the cause but a pilot can normally read the report and see where it started to go wrong.

Most accidents are not just one mistake. most involve a chain of events i.e. a bad decision compounded by equipment failure etc. And most can be avoided by simply removing one link of the chain.

Training and procedures are very important and can be taught. Good Judgement is normally only gained by experience. Discussions of this kind can seem morbid to an outsider but experience is gained through learning from your and others mistakes. Pilots are a cocky bunch in general, that is part of what makes a good pilot, it can also be a problem if you let it cloud your judgement (Ex. It cant happen to me! ) Discussing items like these with your peers DOES make a difference.

Every day we make decisions, should we shoot the approach or go to the alternate airport? Do we go right or left of that thunder cell? Pick the wrong one and you are the goat for every crash reporter in the country, pick the right one and it was just another day at the office.

Discussion is just one tool pilots use to stay out of the goat pen!

 

[N628AU]

I cannot think of an accident that resulted in injuries or fatalities at Mesa. They have a good safety record. This post is inflammatory and a disgrace to those who work at Mesa. They are aviation professionals like the rest of us. Your past postings make it clear that you are no fan of the affiliate carriers. To twist your dislike of Mesa and the rest in regard to what it may cost the wholly-owneds in terms of job security is an insult to the friends and families of the victims of a tragic accident. Do you have a record that this aircraft was written up and the crew pressured to fly it? If not, shut up. I urge the moderators to take down this disgusting posting.

 

[brandnewsin1]

Just a thought....


In PIT, Express is ground handled by PSA. This includes the ramp, gate, baggage transfer (make-up areas), and administration. They act as a stand alone company and do have their fleet of Dorny's they fly 75 flights out of PIT a day. However, these agents, who by the way start at 6.77/h (less than the McDonalds employees in the airport), are required to work aircraft from 7 different carriers(MESA/Air Midwest, TransStates, PSA, Piedmont, Alleghany, Colgan and Shuttle America). 3 of those contract thier PIT mtc to PSA. ASIG then fuels these planes. These workers at PIT are understaffed and overworked. Sometimes averaging 1 agent per 3 AOG. Now if an aircraft is overloaded at PIT (not to say the plane that crashed was, just follow me) the FAA and NTSB would have to look at PSA.....not Air Midwest. PSA is a WHOLLY OWNED AFFILIATE of USAIRWAYS. Would that put US on the line for the accident? If so, and it comes back that the plane was overweight......then US is responsible because PIEDMONT....another WHOLLY OWNED....ground handles CLT in the same way described above.

Also, right after the plane crashed, it was deleted out of the system, however if you were to Flightfo the inbound and then trace the flightfo's back through the previous 2 days, you would see numerous CXL and MTC Delays on ZVI (the SABRE ID). The plane had major MTC problems for two days prior. I have a copy of the printout of every inbound and outbound of that aircraft for 3 days back. With MTC being contracted out at many small stations, you then have ANOTHER hand in the cookie jar......

Somebody, whether it be the ramp, the MTC, or the crew....made a big mistake. It resulted in a horrible tragedy. Too many people, working under too many different management groups touched this aircraft. THAT is the major problem and THAT is what caused this crash.

Mabye we all better think about this before we allow this airline to basically become an Express airline and EVERY station has this scenario in place. This isnt WALMART.

--------------------------

Its better to DIE on your FEET than to LIVE on your KNEES...

 

[ONTHESTREET]

When I was with the W/O I never had a problem in PIT. They are indeed underpaid. Sometimes a little slow when it was cold but not much in the way of paperwork or maint. problems.

Now Philly. thats a different story.....I swear I was marshalled in by a crack dealer on several occasions. We also had repeated problems with the rampers sleeping on the A/C and drinking all the booze on the overnights. We eventually stopped overnighting the A/C there. Went to DC instead.

I even had to show one fueler how to hook up so we could get gas!!!!

We had a guy who complained to the base manager about the problems....their official response was to accuse him of racism!!!!!


I know Pit is PSA, CLT is PDT, but I cannot remember what company handles Philly. Anybody know?

 

[D3o2r8kdrvr]

Anybody remember ROA about two years ago? If I'm wrong correct me, but I think the Captain stated "a go around is not an option." Well what the hell are shooting a VFR approach into mountaineous terrain with a good a/c if a go around is not an option? How does a captain graduate to flying an RJ with that type of rationale? And then after they cracked the a/c the crew elected to look the other direction and allow the bird to fly revenue a few hours later. There is a culture at MESA that needs to be evaluated. If something is broke you write it up, if it needs fixing you right it up, if it doesn't look right, feel right, smell right, you write it up.

I stand firm in saying that US Airways needs to do more business with its wholly owned carriers instead of farming services out. Our financial condition is too delicate to trust an outfit like MESA to watch the back door.

 

[brandnewsin1]

ONTHESTREET

Alleghany ground handles PHL.

 

[en-51]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/11/2003 12:40:19 AM brandnewsin1 wrote:

Just a thought....


In PIT, Express is ground handled by PSA. This includes the ramp, gate, baggage transfer (make-up areas), and administration. They act as a stand alone company and do have their fleet of Dorny's they fly 75 flights out of PIT a day. However, these agents, who by the way start at 6.77/h (less than the McDonalds employees in the airport), are required to work aircraft from 7 different carriers(MESA/Air Midwest, TransStates, PSA, Piedmont, Alleghany, Colgan and Shuttle America). 3 of those contract thier PIT mtc to PSA. ASIG then fuels these planes. These workers at PIT are understaffed and overworked. Sometimes averaging 1 agent per 3 AOG. Now if an aircraft is overloaded at PIT (not to say the plane that crashed was, just follow me) the FAA and NTSB would have to look at PSA.....not Air Midwest. PSA is a WHOLLY OWNED AFFILIATE of USAIRWAYS. Would that put US on the line for the accident? If so, and it comes back that the plane was overweight......then US is responsible because PIEDMONT....another WHOLLY OWNED....ground handles CLT in the same way described above.

Also, right after the plane crashed, it was deleted out of the system, however if you were to Flightfo the inbound and then trace the flightfo's back through the previous 2 days, you would see numerous CXL and MTC Delays on ZVI (the SABRE ID). The plane had major MTC problems for two days prior. I have a copy of the printout of every inbound and outbound of that aircraft for 3 days back. With MTC being contracted out at many small stations, you then have ANOTHER hand in the cookie jar......

Somebody, whether it be the ramp, the MTC, or the crew....made a big mistake. It resulted in a horrible tragedy. Too many people, working under too many different management groups touched this aircraft. THAT is the major problem and THAT is what caused this crash.

Mabye we all better think about this before we allow this airline to basically become an Express airline and EVERY station has this scenario in place. This isnt WALMART.

--------------------------

Its better to DIE on your FEET than to LIVE on your KNEES...
----------------
[/blockquote]
whenever planes from either airlines of the express network go into any station..manuals from those airline or given to that stations and training in according to among other things correctly filling out load manifest for the flights and how to load the planes.
Again the paperwork for the flight in question checked out...the calculations of the captain checked out ...

The question of the plane being overweight has nothing to do with improper loading but more to do with if the weight in the back in addition to any problems with the elevators led to the accident..since the weight of the plane was 100lb below the max take off weight

 

[N628AU]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/11/2003 817 AM D3o2r8kdrvr wrote:

Anybody remember ROA about two years ago? If I'm wrong correct me, but I think the Captain stated "a go around is not an option." Well what the hell are shooting a VFR approach into mountaineous terrain with a good a/c if a go around is not an option? How does a captain graduate to flying an RJ with that type of rationale? And then after they cracked the a/c the crew elected to look the other direction and allow the bird to fly revenue a few hours later. There is a culture at MESA that needs to be evaluated. If something is broke you write it up, if it needs fixing you right it up, if it doesn't look right, feel right, smell right, you write it up.

I stand firm in saying that US Airways needs to do more business with its wholly owned carriers instead of farming services out. Our financial condition is too delicate to trust an outfit like MESA to watch the back door.


----------------
[/blockquote]

The flight crew who took the aircraft into ROA, back to CLT, and the maintenance people who issued a ferry permit for that aircraft were all terminated for their actions. Again, where did Mesa management force anyone to do this in regards to the ERJ in ROA. If you look at any airline, affiliate, wholly owned, mainline, whatever, you will see people do stupid things. Remember the WN 737 that overshot the runway in Burbank? Do the actions of that crew make WN unsafe? You need to rethink your line of thought and stop letting you personal feelings regarding the flying the contract carriers are doing continue to cloud your judgement.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/10/2003 6:42:27 PM airmac wrote:

D3o2r8kdrvr
Member

Total Posts: 13
Last Post: 1/10/2003
Member Since: 12/13/2002
Member #: 1426

Subscribe to this author

Reports are surfacing that the CVR on #5481 indicated unusual elevator commands on the flight into CLT prior to the accident as discussed by the crew.

Mesa Air Group has for years been known to pressure air crews to fly aircraft regardless of possible safety issues. If this crew was aware of a possible a/c maintenance issue, and because the Corporate culture influenced them to fly the equipment, than US Airways has a very serious issue on their hands.

I would like to challenge the mainline pilot group, wholly owned pilot group, and MESA MEC to demand that this situation is reviewed before more innocent passengers are put in harms way. It is possible that the MESA company culture contributed to this accident.

DEMAND ANSWERS BEFORE MORE LIVES ARE LOST. MESA IS NOT GOOD FOR US AIRWAYS, NOR IS IT GOOD FOR THE INDUSTRY.



----------------
[/blockquote]


It is not limited to just Mesa, all pilots need to be aware that they are the ultimate authority on safety.

There was an issue a few years back with a Wholly owned managment type also acting improperly. It involved an emergency landing at an airport not serviced by that carrier for smoke in the cockpit. This high ranking manager insisted that the crew fly the airplane to its maint. base. The Captain rightfully refused to comply. I was told that by the Captain that the Captain then endured several minutes of verbal abuse and threats of termination. The Captain simply told this manager that if he wanted that aircraft to move before it was inspected, he would have to do it himself!

They finally sent a maint. crew to look at the plane and concluded that if it had been flown, it would have resulted in an uncontrollable electrical fire in the electronics bay!

I will not disclose which carrier but Dorkdriver should have no problem finding out the details about this incident.

All flight crews need to be aware that managment is out to make money, Most managment teams have no clue about the actual operations or safety issues involved. That is why the FAA gives the ultimate authority of the aircraft to the Captain.

 

[GSPflyer]

Just thought I'd let everyone know how the story is playing in the GSP area. Last night, WSPA(the GSP CBS affiliate) ran a pretty scathing piece on US Airways's continued tolerance of flying unchecked B1900s into GSP. More than a few people they talked to weren't too happy about that situation. I'm actually kind of surprised to learn that US flew 1900s down here. Until now I assumed that CLT service was all on DH8s,CRJs, and ERJs after mainline pulled it's 6 dailies out right after 9/11 (1 PHL roundtrip, 5 to CLT). In fact, I think 5841 was overbooked b/c at least one passenger from PHF missed his connection, and another person from GSP changed her travel plans at the last minute. God bless all those aboard 5841 and I hope the cause of this tragedy is found swiftly.
-GSPflyer

 

[deelmakur]

As a customer I firstly make an observation. CLT is a major regional hub. GSP is located in one of the fastest growing economic regions in the country, home to, among other things, a number of multinational operations. I then ask a question. What in the hell was this kind of aircraft doing on a run like that?

 

[KCFlyer]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/12/2003 6:16:04 AM deelmakur wrote:
[P]As a customer I firstly make an observation. CLT is a major regional hub. GSP is located in one of the fastest growing economic regions in the country, home to, among other things, a number of multinational operations. I then ask a question. What in the hell was this kind of aircraft doing on a run like that?[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]The two cities are less than 75 miles apart. I've flown on a U mainline jet into GSP - the load was "light" to say the least. True, more than 19, but not much. [/P]

 

[Hope777]

One thing that has been brought up is that the aircraft was 100lbs under max T/O weight. This brings me to something I have said changed since 9/11. The bag weight used is 25lbs per bag, since 9/11 I would say the average is closer to 35lbs per bag. We need to either increase the weight used or start using actual bag weight.

 

[GSPflyer]

Personally, I think US's problems with filling mainliners is due in part b/c they ran too much Express service to almost everywhere from here. Currently US Airways Express flies:
3 Round Trips to Philadelphia (2 RJ,1 Prop)
3 Round Trips to Washington National (3 Prop)
2 Round Trips to Pittsburgh (2 RJ)
3 Round Trips to New York/LaGuardia (3 RJ)
6 Round Trips to Charlotte (2 RJ, 4 Prop)
2 Round Trips to Raleigh/Durham (2 Prop)
1 Round Trip to Asheville, NC (1 Prop)
Total:20 Round Trips (9 RJ,11 Prop)

Now here's my question: What the heck is US flying to RDU and AVL? Neither is a US hub, and many biz passengers will simply DRIVE to both. AVL in particular has NO connecting opportunities. If I were running the show here's what US ops at GSP would look like:
2 Round Trips to PHL(2 RJ)
1 Round Trip to LGA(1 737)
2 Round Trips to DCA(2 Prop)
2 Round Trips to PIT(2 RJ)
5 Round Trips to CLT(5 737)
Total: 12 Round Trips (6 737,2 Prop, 4 RJ)