Siegel Article

[Braveheart]

PitBull and Bob Owens, those were excellently written articles. Couldn't have explained it any better.

PSA, maybe you should take the 24 years and counting, follow the coattails of Seigel should you be able to successfully launch him to replace that dude you mentioned in your post what's his name, Ted Turner!

Remember PSA:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

 

[PITbull]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/1/2003 12:06:20 PM PSA1979 wrote:

Oh, and another thing the company hasn't gotten to me, I am just a loyal worker, doing the best I can do to keep our customers coming back!!!
----------------
[/blockquote]

Then, may I ask, where are those customers?

22 years and counting!

 

[PSA1979]

PITbll,sounds like you have put yourself in another catagory through your RN and Business Degree. It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to do our job, it just takes a good personality and quick thinking on your feet.
I have done many, many different jobs, including being a Police Officer and 911 operator. The grunt work, is not a put down, it is work that has to be done. Someone has to be the worker bees. We clean airplanes, sell tickets, do maintinence, fly airplanes, dispatch, etc. That is life. Oh, and nurses do the grunt work too. We are not the Hospital Administrators, we are the worker bees. We are valuable, but can be replaced easily. You can't forget that.

 

[savyinvestor]

Holy ****, no wonder the pilots were expected to give back more and attacked other employee groups that balked at concessions. Appears they had the most to lose if the company went under. Do they have the most to gain if U succeeds? Savy

 

[savyinvestor]

Thanks for the info. Savy

 

[diogenes]

BINGO! You hit it right on. Congress is in on this as well, and wants to ensure that the enhanced security measure costs that are in the billions are not endured by the airlines, or tax payers,or passenger, but smack down on the emplloyee of the airline, for as long as the employee can stand it.


Further proof of that theory is in front of you at the airport. Look at TSA (Thousands Standing Around), calculate about $30,000 a head, and realize where Uncle Sam shifted a bunch of your dollars to.
----------------
[/blockquote]

 

[PITbull]

Well 19% of $100 Million is $19 Million for their stake.

I am not sure if it is the after pre-tax 7% and capped off at $100 Million as some of the other labor groups have.

 

[OldGuyinPA]

This industry is toast. Finished as we've known it.

All the unions have buckled to Dave and the rest of his crew from the Crystal Palace. I imagine ALPA will also go along with Dave's self funded pension idea. What choice do they have?? This used to be an honorable career, but no longer. In 10 years or less, the airports will resemble the Greyhound bus station. We will never recover the salaries lost, benefits taken away. We are, and will continue to pay for the last 15 years of arrogance from management. Yes, Dave will move on when we fail. He had nothing to lose.

We lost everything.......

 

[PITbull]

Lindy,


As I attempted to explain to PSA, it is not about who makes what and what "pecking order" they are in. We have our co. that is in bankruptcy. I don't understand folks on this board that feel guilty for making a livable wage, and so glady give it up because they feel they never deserved it in the first place.

I do not want to veer off the main issue of these threads, but UNION, does not mean blue collar"worker bee". We are ALL workers of a corporation with different responsibilites and talents and education backgrounds, and skills. Some are more compensated than others depending on the responsibility NOT the hours put in. UNIONIZED workers are NOT just blue collar america, that is old mentality. They are DOCTORS and NURSES, and TEACHERS, PERFORMERS, ATHELETES ETC.. Many "white collar" professionals are unionized. And I call them professionals that work.

We are talking about concessionary sacrifices NOT concessionary "give backs". Answser me this, if a company started off a year ago with 46,000 employees and had 31 Vice Presidents, why would the same company need
to increase their vice presidents to 32 to manage and even more reduced work force of 32, 000 employees?

Is their "No furlough language" for Vice Presidents?

Its the issue of gross disparity. In Japan layoffs start from the top and work there way down.

Corporations that succceed and go from "good to great" are companies that recognize and understand the human condition and those companies have a management that makes sure their employees are taken care of.

The jury is still out on this management; we will see the true regard and meaning of "labor friendly" when we start to profit and if the real intent was to turn this company around for the profit of all investerors including the biggest investors, THE EMPLOYEES.

 

[lindy]

Pit Bull

If, as you say, you do have a business degree, you should understand the distinction between management and labor. Those people, such as Dave Siegel, Don Carty, Gordon Bethune, made a decision to take risks, move their families, work more than forty hours a week in order to attain the position in which they finds themselves. Do I begrudge them for what they have attained? No, not at all. When I was studying for my MBA, a professor stated that those people in high managment positons were paid according to what their value was to the Company for whom they were employed/hired. A person in such a position has to make hard and difficult choices. They can go from being "good guys" to "bad guys" as soon as an unpopular/life changing decision is made.

Early on in my career, I chose not to climb the corporate ladder. I found it cut-throat, back stabbing, and requiring way too much time and effort. Fortunately, I found a niche which pays me handsomely with plenty of time off to pursue my other activities even with the concessions.

The point of all this is that DAVE and his team were hired to turn this airline into a profitable enterprise. Without their efforts, we would probably be in Chapter 7. Do I agree with some of their tactics? No. But the bottom line is, I still have a paycheck, I still have a retirement, and I still have a future. I made my choice long ago to walk down the path on which I am on. I do not have class envy, I do not begrudge what Dave stands to make in the years to come. He was hired to to a job and he is doing it. If you think you could do better, apply for the next VP opening. Give up your precious union protection and take risks. You may be handsomely rewarded or thrown out on your ear. It depends on the type of job you do.

 

[airknocker]

OK, Forbes gives Dave all the credit and has crowned him the "Prince of BK", but when March 31 rolls around and U is out without court protection what is next? UAL is wobbling thru BK with analysts shaking their heads over it's future and Prince Dave looking for a bigger challenge and compensation. Let's stand back and take stock of recent events and the cast of characters: Steve Wolf-U Chair.BOD, ex-CEO&Pres., UAL ex-CEO; Rakesh Gangwal-U ex-CEO, UAL VP; Rono Dutta-UAL ex-Pres., advisor to RSA David Bronner-U major investor DIP; David Siegal-U CEO, ex-CEO COexpress; Jonathan Orinstein-Mesa CEO, COexpress VP and once controlled 6% U equity, finally David Bonderman-Texas Pacific Group CEO, CO BOD, advisor to Dave&Jonathan, failed bidder for U and present potential bidder for UAL. With enough chairs a good poker match! Once again we have to recognize that U&UAL employees are just bystanders in a high stakes match with players with egoes that would fill a 330. Our concerns are but speedbumps to an industry that is evolving at such a rapid pace that September 10, 2001 will be remembered as the end of the good ol' days. Luck all!

 

[CaptChill]

I appreciate your opinion... but the pilot group didn't get a vote in all of this... Thank ALPA


[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/1/2003 857 AM sabre wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/31/2003 11:28:27 PM autofixer wrote:

Dave is evil. He will now run through the airline industry like a virus. A good job is now a sh@#@ job! Time will tell how easy it is to run an airline.
----------------
[/blockquote]


Dave might be evil but put the responsibility where it should be, with the employees who CONSENTED to everything DAVE has wanted and asked for.
Dave couldn't do anything unless every chest pounding union rolled over and played dead.
Got news for you, it aint getting any better either for the next 6 years since our lapdog of a union gave more cuts in years 2005,2006, 2007, 2008 and those are years that the company plans to make a profit.

The employees didn't protect their families, they screwed them!
Bottom line is that Dave didn't do ANYTHING without the employee CONSENT so that would make all of us just as evil then wouldn't it?


And if Dave is a virus then the employees caught it.


love
----------------
[/blockquote]

 

[CaptChill]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/1/2003 2:06:45 PM lindy wrote:

Pit Bull/

If, as you say, you do have a business degree, you should understand the distinction between management and labor. Those people, such as Dave Siegel, Don Carty, Gordon Bethune, made a decision to take risks, move their families, work more than forty hours a week in order to attain the position in which they finds themselves. Do I begrudge them for what they have attained? No, not at all. When I was studying for my MBA, a professor stated that those people in high managment positons were paid according to what their value was to the Company for whom they were employed/hired. A person in such a position has to make hard and difficult choices. They can go from being "good guys" to "bad guys" as soon as an unpopular/life changing decision is made.

Early on in my career, I chose not to climb the corporate ladder. I found it cut-throat, back stabbing, and requiring way too much time and effort. Fortunately, I found a niche which pays me handsomely with plenty of time off to pursue my other activities even with the concessions.

The point of all this is that DAVE and his team were hired to turn this airline into a profitable enterprise. Without their efforts, we would probably be in Chapter 7. Do I agree with some of their tactics? No. But the bottom line is, I still have a paycheck, I still have a retirement, and I still have a future. I made my choice long ago to walk down the path on which I am on. I do not have class envy, I do not begrudge what Dave stands to make in the years to come. He was hired to to a job and he is doing it. If you think you could do better, apply for the next VP opening. Give up your precious union protection and take risks. You may be handsomely rewarded or thrown out on your ear. It depends on the type of job you do.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Lindy...
Excuse me... But I haven't seen Siegel and management do anything but gut the union contracts, particularly the pilots... What makes you think for a moment that he can run and grow an airline... Do you have a copy of his CV that qualifies him for this position???

Do you have any idea what Siegel/Bronner's little media campaigns have done to U's customer base?... For that matter, do you think that there's just any slim possibility that Siegel Filing Chapter 11 perhaps had some impact on U's customer base (even though in the first rounds of concession, all the while being told by Siegel, these huge concessions were necessary to keep the company out of Chapt ll, and before the ink was even dry... he filed... on a Sunday no less?

Pleeeeeeeeaaaasssseeeee!... We have a CEO that is a master at gutting union contracts... that's it!...

And by the way... the employees of U over time have had great ideas as to how to grow this airline... to improve this airline... but do you think for one minute the "beancounters" in the crystal palace have ever taken them into consideration?

Good management does not rule by force... but by developing trust and cultivating good relations with their employees. It's just like PitBull said... the "human condition".

I have nothing but contempt for David Siegel, for the divisiveness he has created within this company and I would not hesitate to tell him to his face.

 

[Braveheart]

PSA:

What country did you grow up in? I never realized certain American citizens are classified as a “worker beeâ€, not a human being. Every human worker in America whether they be a CEO, VP, Manager, Teacher, Police Officer, Mailman, Garbage Collector or Toilet Cleaner are human, not categorized as a “worker beeâ€. That allows me to think you classify Seigel as the Queen Bee?

He can be your queen bee honey, but never mine. I live in America, a country where you are taught to respect all people of color, race and creed and to treat all equal, regardless how poor and regardless how well they are educated.

If you were a police officer, a 911 dispatcher and now a flight attendant, that is a major insult to yourself and your professions. It does not speak highly of you. Classifying yourself as a “worker beeâ€, a person who says “YES SIR†to all directives from your “queen bee†highly insults you as a person. A person who does not think for yourself, your family and your safety!

I hope I am NEVER on one of your flights as a passenger and God forbid a major development occurred. Would you have to consult via telephone first to your queen bee’s because you are only a worker bee?

Seigel is a human being just like you, me, pitbull, bob owen and the rest who write on this list. He sh-ts the same way you do, puts his pants on the same way you do and can accept a drastic drop in wages, the same medical benefits and the same pension benefits as everyone else does. He knew the circumstances before he accepted his position.

If he was your “queen bee†in a home that had food for 2-days and you where going to be held hostage for 2-weeks, does he get more food because he is the queen bee and you are only the worker bee? You die honey, because if your queen bee does not share equally with the rest of those people in the room he can visit your gravesite and place flowers in memory of you being such a valiant worker bee. I’ll guarantee you your queen bee will not last under those circumstances.

I do not know what you are counting for with those 24-years, but whatever pension you had coming is not going to be worth counting. You may want to tack you age on to that figure and say my age and counting…I am a worker bee and not entitled to be a retirement bee.

 

[CaptChill]

Bingo Pit... You're right on target!