Shared Sacrifice? - Where is Eagle

[RV4]

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On 4/5/2003 10:27:18 AM Hopeful wrote:

You must be referring to Labor-Friendly Clinton who stopped the pilot''s strike 5 minutes after midnight!

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BY GOD! How dare you speak the truth when liberals are on a roll blaming Bush and the GOP for the failure of their own Union to stand-up and LEAD agianst the FEAR BASED concessions.

Whom else have you heard of recently that LEADS by FEAR AND INTIMIDATION?

Maybe we should just change the name to Dictator Airlines.

 

[Cleared Direct]

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AAviator wrote:

We're saying the same thing differently. Get informed is good advice, you should try it.

The language you refer to in the current contract is correct, but black lined in the T/A. Pending ratification, its gone.

Re-read the LOA and tell me how after a time period Eagle will be flying anything with more than 50 seats.
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AAviator,

You can read just like everyone else. Here it is:

___________________________________

3. If the parties fail to reach agreement pursuant to paragraph 1, above,
furloughed American pilots shall occupy the CRJ Captain positions at American
Eagle so long as any American pilots are on furlough; the parties shall meet to
discuss how best to implement the parties present intention to secure CRJ-700
flying at the Company and its Affiliates to American Airlines pilots; and the
Company shall have an exception to keep the affected CRJ-700 aircraft at
American Eagle pending the resolution of that issue.
___________________________________


In addition to this LOA "Agreement on CRJ-700 Aircraft and Supplement W Settlement", APA has tentatively agreed to a LOA titled "Small Jets Agreed Terms". I will post the LOA below. Specifically read paragraph nine. It is very clear what AMR will attempt to do with the 70 seaters that are on property at Eagle.

Do not trust AMR management with this cheesy contract language. It needs to be back and white. AMR hosed Eagle with their interpretation of the flow through and hosed APA with their interpretation of the flow back. Watch for them to not order any "additional" RJs at Eagle to prevent any appreciable amount of AA flow backs at Eagle also. The "additional" RJs will instead be operated at an American Connection carrier to prevent the costs associated with the training of flow back pilots at Eagle. APA has also tentatively agreed to a "Jets for Jobs" LOA with none majority owned carriers like the American Connection, but its language is even weaker. There will be no guarantee that APA can secure jets for job at American Connection. It simply says that the company will pursue it.

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9. If and when the CRJ70 is moved to the AA operating certificate, the disposition of AE rights CAs will be determined by APA and ALPA.
___________________________________


___________________________________
Small Jets Agreed Terms

1. The Company will run a Master Shuffle bid run which will indicate the following:
a. Furlough Candidates/Numbers
b. Overage Bid Statuses
2. Implementation will be as follows:
a. Potential furlough candidates will be identified through the Master Shuffle.
b. Based on the number of potential furloughees and their seniority, current
(in existing aircraft) and future (in aircraft on order/option) AE CJ CA
positions available for bid will be identified.
c. CJ CA positions will be proffered to all potential furloughees. Positions will
be identified by equipment type (i.e. CJ70, EMB145) and furloughees will
be able to bid each equipment type separately. Any bid placed by a pilot
shall remain in effect (even while the pilot is on furlough) until removed by
the pilot.
d. The group of potential furloughees who have bid AE CJ CA will be ranked
in seniority order.
e. AE CJ CA positions will be awarded in seniority order of those pilots
designated in 2.e. until all positions are filled.
f. Training for the AE CJ CA positions will occur in reverse seniority order
among those awarded AE CJ CA positions, subject to the following:
i. AA bid statuses will be identified and listed by level of overage. If a
bid status contains a pilot or pilots that can be displaced or
furloughed, it shall be considered an “Overage Bid Status.â€
ii. Pilots in Overage Bid Statuses who have bid AE CJ CA positions
will be designated “Overage Pilots.â€
iii. Overage Pilots will be awarded an AE CJ CA training date based
on AE training availability. AE CJ CA training cycles will be used for
Overage Pilots to the maximum extent possible. If one bid status
has more Overage Pilots, the Company may elect to award an AE
CJ CA position and training slot to a more senior Overage Pilot
before a more junior Overage Pilot.
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
Page 2
g. Any pilot sent to AE CA CJ training who has a junior pilot holding an AE
CJ CA award remaining at AA will be pay protected in their prior bid status
until such time as there are no junior pilots holding AE CJ CA awards
remaining in the AA system.
h. If a pilot holding an AE CJ CA award is furloughed with a junior AA pilot in
an AE CJ CA position or in AE CJ CA training, such pilot will be pay
protected until beginning training at AE. Such pay protection will consist of
the average monthly scheduled AE CJ CA block hours, or monthly reserve
guarantee for the highest AE CJ bid, whichever is greater.
3. All furloughed pilots are entitled to furlough pay as per contractual provisions.
a. In the event of 2.i. above, a pilot will receive pay protection compensation
or furlough pay, whichever is greater. Once furlough pay expires, the pilot
will continue to receive pay protection compensation until they begin
training at AE.
4. Furloughed pilots with bid awards at AE will continue to receive furlough pay until
receiving pay at AE or until contractual expiration of furlough pay, whichever
occurs first.
5. Training Freeze
a. AA furloughees trained to an AE CJ CA position will incur a training freeze
identical to that for AE CJ CAs in Supplement W.
6. In the event that there is an open CJ CA position (or AA CRJ70 FO position) and
no active AA pilot has rights to the position:
a. Any AA furloughee in AE CJ CA positions that are not serving a lock-in will
be proffered any open AA CRJ70 positions. Their ability to be awarded
this bid may be limited by an AE exit metering rate. If bypassed because
of metering, the pilot will be pay protected.
b. AA furloughed pilots will be recalled in seniority order to AA CRJ70
positions
c. If no AA CRJ70 positions exist, then AA furloughed pilots will be proffered
available AE CJ CA positions based on a pilot’s standing bid ballot. These
positions must be:
i. created by the addition of a new AE CJ provided that the addition of
that aircraft results in an increase in the overall American Eagle
fleet count or,
ii. occupied by a furloughed AA pilot or,
iii. an AE CRJ70 position occupied by a non-Eagle Rights AE CA.
d. Once proffered a recall to an AA CRJ70 position, AA pilots may defer as
per current GB. If proffered an AE CJ CA position, AA pilots may defer as
per Supplement W.
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
Page 3
e. If an AA pilot accepts an AE CJ CA position, he or she will incur a lock-in
of 24 months that may allow a more junior pilot to be recalled directly to
AA.
7. Pilots furloughed due to lack of training availability will be treated as if they had
uninterrupted employment with AMR for the purposes of vacation accrual and
any other benefits, consistent with corporate policy.
8. Metered Rate for Exit from AE
a. When AA pilots are recalled to the mainline, they will be allowed to exit AE
at a rate of a maximum of 20 per month.
9. If and when the CRJ70 is moved to the AA operating certificate, the disposition of
AE rights CAs will be determined by APA and ALPA.
10. Under the AA operating certificate, the CRJ70 Pay, Benefits and Work Rules will
be negotiated as per the Letter of Understanding.
__________________________________


Please get more informed and inform others.

 

[AirwAr]

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On 4/5/2003 10:57:45 AM Cleared Direct wrote:
.
.
.

10. Under the AA operating certificate, the CRJ70 Pay, Benefits and Work Rules will
be negotiated as per the Letter of Understanding.

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I was going to ask if the pay & benifits for an AA CRJ pilot were going to be similar to that of the AE CRJ pilot, but it seems that hasn''t been determined yet. I would expect that AA rates will need to be competitive because, if not, an arbitrator will be employed to make the decision and this decision would have to be made based on rates paid by other CRJ operators.

The APA should negotiate to have Eagle continue to operate the aircraft with APA pilots. Doing this may give the APA a slight advantage in negotiating better rates for its CRJ pilots.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/5/2003 11:08:14 AM Buck wrote:


If you tire of hearing about Eagle, then have Mr. Carty and the Board of Directors at AMR declare that Eagle is not part of AMR.

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During Bowler's last road show he said that Eagle was making money. I wonder if Eagle taking paycuts while making money to support American would give ammo to those who are looking at filing a single carrier petition.

BTW, water cooler talk right now is that the troops want AMR to sell off Eagle so that we can go it alone.

 

[AAviator]

Cleared direct
3. If the parties fail to reach agreement pursuant to paragraph 1, above,
furloughed American pilots shall occupy the CRJ Captain positions at American
Eagle so long as any American pilots are on furlough; the parties shall meet to
discuss how best to implement the parties present intention to secure CRJ-700
flying at the Company and its Affiliates to American Airlines pilots; and the
Company shall have an exception to keep the affected CRJ-700 aircraft at
American Eagle pending the resolution of that issue.


If the 70 seater does not come onto the AA certificate, or if a new operation is not created to provide the jobs to AA pilots the airplane goes away.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/4/2003 5:33:55 PM Cleared Direct wrote:

Eagle just went to a "fee for departure" agreement with AMR. Eagle was on a pro-rated contract bases with AMR before, and received part of the connecting revenue. Now Eagle gets a fixed payment regardless if the plane is full or no matter how much ticket revenue is generated. This is how most none wholly owned carriers contract with airlines. AMR has been able to blur the money between the carriers to their advantage in the past. Now Eagle will clearly show much larger profits if looked at like a contractor.

This is clearly being done to make AMR look like they are losing more money while at the same time making Eagle look more profitable for a sale of their assets.

Eagle is making money and you will soon see how much every quarter. Eagle emoloyees have already shared enough sacrifice. Eagle will not share in the stock shares that will be attained in the proposed TAs at AA.


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While a fee per departure payment basis is the norm for codeshare SJ operators it doesn/t seem to me that this gives a true impression of how well an airline is doing other than how many flights it can launch.

Do you know what this fee is going to be? Will it be the same as other FPD agreements at other airlines?

 

[jetdryvr]

The fee is suppose to be several hundred dollars below the industry average.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/5/2003 1:29:36 PM jetdryvr wrote:

The fee is suppose to be several hundred dollars below the industry average.



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What''s industry average?

 

[Cleared Direct]

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AAviator wrote:

Cleared direct

3. If the parties fail to reach agreement pursuant to paragraph 1, above,
furloughed American pilots shall occupy the CRJ Captain positions at American
Eagle so long as any American pilots are on furlough; the parties shall meet to
discuss how best to implement the parties present intention to secure CRJ-700
flying at the Company and its Affiliates to American Airlines pilots; and the
Company shall have an exception to keep the affected CRJ-700 aircraft at
American Eagle pending the resolution of that issue.


If the 70 seater does not come onto the AA certificate, or if a new operation is not created to provide the jobs to AA pilots the airplane goes away.
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AAviator,

The pending resolution period will be stretched out forever if you know anything about AMR. APA Supplement W/ALPA Letter 3 explains a term called "Eagle Rights" Captain. These agreements are 4 party agreements between AA,AE,APA, and ALPA. "Eagle Rights" Captains that are flying the CRJ-700 at the time of possible TA ratification will either fly them at Eagle, AA, or agree to some other compensation. "Eagle Rights" Captains cannot be displaced from their CRJ-700 by any AA pilot unless agreed upon by all 4 parties. Hence the following:

_______________________________

9. If and when the CRJ70 is moved to the AA operating certificate, the disposition of AE rights CAs will be determined by APA and ALPA.
_______________________________

This is why it is my opinion their will be some Eagle pilots flying the CRJ-700 until they retire. Even AA and APA know they can''t change Supplement W/ Letter 3 without agreement with ALPA. If you want to interpret the TA and LOAs as meaning that only APA pilots will fly CRJ-700s than you will be disappointed.

 

[RV4]

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On 4/5/2003 211 PM will fix for food wrote:

What''s industry average?

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The INDUSTRY AVERAGE WAGE is about to drop thanks to the TWU.

Oops Maybe NOT.

Legal Manuevers may stop the ratification process.

 

[jetdryvr]

Then come the little problem of qualification to fly it. As captains. We already have problems with the few AA wonder flowbacks. Not all granted but some.

 

[AAviator]

Cleared direct,
Supp W dies with the ratification of the T/A. Its been deleted with the T/A. I don''t know what legal remedy you have. I can''t tell you how or why, but according to the APA web-site supp W is deleted. Exact word deleted.

Show me contactual language giving you ownership of the CRJ 700. The T/A shows that to now be "non exempt" flying.

You may be able to keep both seats on it, but it won''t be flying on or for , or on behalf of AA. So the next paint job on it may be a Mesa color, or an ASA color. Definitely not red white and blue.

51 seats and up is AA flying pending ratification.

 

[Duditz]

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On 4/5/2003 6:37:54 PM AAviator wrote:

Cleared direct,
Supp W dies with the ratification of the T/A. Its been deleted with the T/A. I don't know what legal remedy you have. I can't tell you how or why, but according to the APA web-site supp W is deleted.


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Supp W is deleted from YOUR CBA. That very same document - signed by AA, AE, APA & ALPA is still contained in OUR CBA but is called "Letter 3" I don't know what legal remedy YOU have.

 

[Duditz]

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On 4/5/2003 12:15:50 PM AAviator wrote:

If the 70 seater does not come onto the AA certificate, or if a new operation is not created to provide the jobs to AA pilots the airplane goes away.

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Do you always have this much trouble understanding simple declarative English sentences? The airplane stays at Eagle PENDING a resolution. Something can be "pending" for a very long time. As an example, the end of the world is currently "pending"

 

[RV4]

What about the original topic?

Where is the Eagle Employee Shared Sacrifice Concession Package?