Shared Sacrifice? - Where is Eagle

[Buck]

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On 4/3/2003 4:32:39 PM AAviator wrote:


jetdryvr, eagle EXISTS because of an EXCEPTION to APA's scope clause. Eagle is an EXCEPTION. The EXCEPTION to APA's contract has been re-written. Challenge all you want. Pending ratification, the 51+ seat flying is owned by APA.

RV4, give it a rest. the pilots are taking a 23% hit. With my downgrade from captain to F/O, I'm looking at a 45-50% pay CUT! Share and share alike? How about the stock options? TWU is slated for 34.7% of the total, the APA 32.5%. Take a hike dude.

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I would say that if you are not happy with the T/A that your leadership brought back then vote it down. If you are going to vote for it, then you need to be the one to take a hike.

What a whiner!

 

[Buck]

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On 4/3/2003 532 PM AAmech wrote:

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On 4/3/2003 5:06:28 PM Buck wrote:​

 

[AAviator]

Buck, If AA downsizes further how can it keep the "present volume of work" as stated in number 2?

 

[michael707767]

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On 4/3/2003 4:12:06 PM jetdryvr wrote:

The up side? If APA starts flying CJ700''s we can then file the single carrier petition which we would probably win as that would be the last puzzle piece. Precedent shows that that usually goes date of hire. We have 20 year guys here at AE over 50% of the list is somewhere around 5 or more years. The implications to AA would be huge.

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You''re full of sh*t. Name one instance where a single carrier petition was granted between such dissimilar airlines, and if you can, name one merger in recent memory that went DOH.

 

[jetdryvr]

Micheal I am not full of it but will try and dig up the info for you. ALPA has been working on this one for awhile the only thing missing was you guys flying at least one aircraft that was in the same seat catagory or otherwise a RJ or shall I say small jet (APA term). Will this happen nobody knows but it is a possibility. Can you show me any single carrier mergers that have not? This is a specific petition item not a buy out ect.


Eagle was not an exception to your contract we existed before that part the scope clause came about when APA and AE pilots wanted to creat one airline out of the 4 Eagles. The scope clause addressed various jet issues and growth.

With out feed AA would be in a worse situation we kinda need each other.

I have had to downgrade since 9/11, taken a paycut seen advancement come to a stop and now have to watch a bunch of undeserving whiners try and take seats at Eagle that they have no business in. Which further stagnates my job. None of us want to see anybody on the street AA or AE pilots, rampers, mechanics, ect. On the other hand I see no reason why I should give up my job so you can have yours.

 

[Buck]

Ok back on topic.

Shared Sacrifice?

How about the:



The AMR Labor Coalition, comprised of the five unions representing American Airlines and American Eagle employees (NYSE:AMR), expressed its support today for "active engagement" with AMR management regarding the difficulties their airlines are currently experiencing, but also strongly criticized the simultaneous effort by management to rewrite the Railway Labor Act.

The AMR Labor Coalition is made up of the following:
-- Transport Workers Union, AFL-CIO (TWU), which represents the
34,500 mechanics and ground employees of American Airlines and
American Eagle.
-- Allied Pilots Association (APA), which represents the 13,500
pilots of American Airlines.
-- Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA), which
represents the 26,000 flight attendants of American Airlines.
-- American Eagle Master Executive Council, Air Line Pilots
Association, Int''l, AFL-CIO (ALPA), which represents the 2,300
pilots of American Eagle.
-- Association of Flight Attendants, AFL-CIO (AFA), which
represents the 1,400 flight attendants of American Eagle.

 

[RV4]

What happened to the original topic about Eagle sharing in the sacrifice?

 

[RV4]

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On 4/3/2003 611 PM Buck wrote:


Ok back on topic.

Shared Sacrifice?

How about the:



The AMR Labor Coalition, comprised of the five unions representing American Airlines and American Eagle employees (NYSE:AMR), expressed its support today for "active engagement" with AMR management regarding the difficulties their airlines are currently experiencing, but also strongly criticized the simultaneous effort by management to rewrite the Railway Labor Act.
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Does anyone have the concession package for Eagle Employees?

It would be easy to "support" active engagement if you were not subjected to any of the givebacks.

 

[jetdryvr]

Agreement on CRJ-700 Aircraft and Supplement W Settlement
This Agreement is made and entered into in accordance with the
provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between American
Airlines, Inc., hereinafter known as the “Companyâ€￾ and the Air Line Pilots in the
service of the Company as represented by the Allied Pilots Association,
hereinafter known as the APA.
Whereas the Association and the Company have agreed that in the future,
Commuter Air Carriers operating under Section 1.D. of the Agreement shall
utilize only aircraft that are not certificated in the United States or Europe with a
maximum passenger capacity of more than 50 seats and that are not certificated
in any country with a maximum gross takeoff weight of more than 65,000 pounds;
Whereas American Eagle Airlines currently has twenty five CRJ-700
aircraft in service or on firm order, and also has options on an additional twenty
five CRJ-700 aircraft;
Whereas the parties have agreed to settle certain Grievances dated
November 8, 2001 and November 30, 2001 under Supplement W to the
Agreement on the terms contained herein and in the accompanying “Small Jetsâ€￾
Letter of Agreement;
Now, therefore, the parties hereby agree to the following:
1. The Company and APA shall have one year from [DOS] to meet and
negotiate in good faith the transfer of the CRJ-700 aircraft currently in service, on
order, or on option at American Eagle to the Company’s operating certificate in a
manner that shall be cost-neutral as to labor costs under collective bargaining
agreements.
2. The APA hereby grants to the Company an exception from the 50 seat,
65,000 pound limitations on aircraft at American Eagle during the time period of
negotiations pursuant to paragraph 1, above, and for one year after reaching
agreement with the APA under paragraph 1, above, in order to effect the transfer
to the Company’s operating certificate of all CRJ-700 aircraft operated by the
Company or an Affiliate.
3. If the parties fail to reach agreement pursuant to paragraph 1, above,
furloughed American pilots shall occupy the CRJ Captain positions at American
Eagle so long as any American pilots are on furlough; the parties shall meet to
discuss how best to implement the parties present intention to secure CRJ-700
flying at the Company and its Affiliates to American Airlines pilots; and the
Company shall have an exception to keep the affected CRJ-700 aircraft at
American Eagle pending the resolution of that issue.
3. Furloughed American Airlines pilots shall displace into CJ Captain
positions on the CRJ-700 at American Eagle under the terms of Supplement W
to the Agreement; such displacement shall encompass all CJ Captain positions
currently occupied by Eagle CJ Captains and subject to displacement under the
terms of Supplement W.
4. Furloughed American Airlines pilots shall be recalled into vacant CJ
Captain positions created by the receipt of new CRJ-700 aircraft at American
Eagle pursuant to the terms of Supplement W. All furloughed American Airlines
pilots shall be eligible for such recall to American Eagle in accordance with their
American Airlines seniority, regardless of whether they have previously occupied
the CJ Captain bid status at American Eagle.
5. A furloughed American Airlines pilot shall be recalled into each vacant CJ
Captain position created by the receipt of a new EMB-145 aircraft at American
Eagle pursuant to the terms of Supplement W, provided that the addition of that
aircraft results in an increase in the overall American Eagle fleet count. All
furloughed American Airlines pilots shall be eligible for such recall to American
Eagle in accordance with their American Airlines seniority, regardless of whether
they have previously occupied the CJ Captain bid status at American Eagle.
Furloughed American Airlines pilots waive their right to any further displacements
and recalls into EMB-145 aircraft after DOS.
For the American Airlines, Inc. For the APA
_____________________________ __________________________

 

[AirwAr]

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On 4/3/2003 6:13:14 PM jetdryvr wrote:

....
On the other hand I see no reason why I should give up my job so you can have yours.

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I really wish someone would post the actual wording of the pilot''s TA.

Does the TA state that APA pilots will push current Eagle pilots to the street? Or does it state that the APA will get the left seat on all future RJs? Does it mention anything about AX? Will Eagle ever take over the AX routes? Not that I want anyone to lose a job, but if someone HAS to go, it should come from the non-AMR carriers.

A few years ago when AMR & the APA cut a TA, that was eventually voted down by the membership, that agreed to give the APA all aircraft above 50 seats if they agreed to unlimited 50 seat RJs at Eagle. At the time it was thought that if it passed, AMR would not purchase CRJ700s because we couldn''t make money at it. With the current TA, will AMR now consider the CRJ700 a good investment even with the APA flying it?

 

[Buck]

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On 4/3/2003 5:49:25 PM AAviator wrote:


Buck, If AA downsizes further how can it keep the "present volume of work" as stated in number 2?

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This "Scope Language" is in one form or another from two or more of the last contract ratifications.

Of course if the company downsizes work would also downsize. If AA files Chapter 7 all of the work goes away.

The point is that the company has had an open end to contract the work out, long before the company found itself in it''s present condition.

 

[AAviator]

Jetdryvr you said "Eagle was not an exception to your contract we existed before that part the scope clause came about when APA and AE pilots wanted to creat one airline out of the 4 Eagles. The scope clause addressed various jet issues and growth. "

Yes, simmons existed, Metro in DFW existed, but were specific exemptions to Scope, as soon as you guys started carrying the AA code. You don''t seem to have a grasp on what the scope language specifically entails, so if you''d like, I''ll email or private message you the language.

I''d be very skeptical about anything ALPA is telling you anyway, isn''t CHQ flying a bunch of your 50 seaters now?

 

[jetdryvr]

AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
Page 1
Small Jets Agreed Terms
1. The Company will run a Master Shuffle bid run which will indicate the following:
a. Furlough Candidates/Numbers
b. Overage Bid Statuses
2. Implementation will be as follows:
a. Potential furlough candidates will be identified through the Master Shuffle.
b. Based on the number of potential furloughees and their seniority, current
(in existing aircraft) and future (in aircraft on order/option) AE CJ CA
positions available for bid will be identified.
c. CJ CA positions will be proffered to all potential furloughees. Positions will
be identified by equipment type (i.e. CJ70, EMB145) and furloughees will
be able to bid each equipment type separately. Any bid placed by a pilot
shall remain in effect (even while the pilot is on furlough) until removed by
the pilot.
d. The group of potential furloughees who have bid AE CJ CA will be ranked
in seniority order.
e. AE CJ CA positions will be awarded in seniority order of those pilots
designated in 2.e. until all positions are filled.
f. Training for the AE CJ CA positions will occur in reverse seniority order
among those awarded AE CJ CA positions, subject to the following:
i. AA bid statuses will be identified and listed by level of overage. If a
bid status contains a pilot or pilots that can be displaced or
furloughed, it shall be considered an “Overage Bid Status.â€
ii. Pilots in Overage Bid Statuses who have bid AE CJ CA positions
will be designated “Overage Pilots.â€
iii. Overage Pilots will be awarded an AE CJ CA training date based
on AE training availability. AE CJ CA training cycles will be used for
Overage Pilots to the maximum extent possible. If one bid status
has more Overage Pilots, the Company may elect to award an AE
CJ CA position and training slot to a more senior Overage Pilot
before a more junior Overage Pilot.
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
Page 2
g. Any pilot sent to AE CA CJ training who has a junior pilot holding an AE
CJ CA award remaining at AA will be pay protected in their prior bid status
until such time as there are no junior pilots holding AE CJ CA awards
remaining in the AA system.
h. If a pilot holding an AE CJ CA award is furloughed with a junior AA pilot in
an AE CJ CA position or in AE CJ CA training, such pilot will be pay
protected until beginning training at AE. Such pay protection will consist of
the average monthly scheduled AE CJ CA block hours, or monthly reserve
guarantee for the highest AE CJ bid, whichever is greater.
3. All furloughed pilots are entitled to furlough pay as per contractual provisions.
a. In the event of 2.i. above, a pilot will receive pay protection compensation
or furlough pay, whichever is greater. Once furlough pay expires, the pilot
will continue to receive pay protection compensation until they begin
training at AE.
4. Furloughed pilots with bid awards at AE will continue to receive furlough pay until
receiving pay at AE or until contractual expiration of furlough pay, whichever
occurs first.
5. Training Freeze
a. AA furloughees trained to an AE CJ CA position will incur a training freeze
identical to that for AE CJ CAs in Supplement W.
6. In the event that there is an open CJ CA position (or AA CRJ70 FO position) and
no active AA pilot has rights to the position:
a. Any AA furloughee in AE CJ CA positions that are not serving a lock-in will
be proffered any open AA CRJ70 positions. Their ability to be awarded
this bid may be limited by an AE exit metering rate. If bypassed because
of metering, the pilot will be pay protected.
b. AA furloughed pilots will be recalled in seniority order to AA CRJ70
positions
c. If no AA CRJ70 positions exist, then AA furloughed pilots will be proffered
available AE CJ CA positions based on a pilot’s standing bid ballot. These
positions must be:
i. created by the addition of a new AE CJ provided that the addition of
that aircraft results in an increase in the overall American Eagle
fleet count or,
ii. occupied by a furloughed AA pilot or,
iii. an AE CRJ70 position occupied by a non-Eagle Rights AE CA.
d. Once proffered a recall to an AA CRJ70 position, AA pilots may defer as
per current GB. If proffered an AE CJ CA position, AA pilots may defer as
per Supplement W.
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
AA – APA Negotiations
APA Counterproposal
29 March 2003
Page 3
e. If an AA pilot accepts an AE CJ CA position, he or she will incur a lock-in
of 24 months that may allow a more junior pilot to be recalled directly to
AA.
7. Pilots furloughed due to lack of training availability will be treated as if they had
uninterrupted employment with AMR for the purposes of vacation accrual and
any other benefits, consistent with corporate policy.
8. Metered Rate for Exit from AE
a. When AA pilots are recalled to the mainline, they will be allowed to exit AE
at a rate of a maximum of 20 per month.
9. If and when the CRJ70 is moved to the AA operating certificate, the disposition of
AE rights CAs will be determined by APA and ALPA.
10. Under the AA operating certificate, the CRJ70 Pay, Benefits and Work Rules will
be negotiated as per the Letter of Understanding

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/3/2003 4:42:10 PM RV4 wrote:

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On 4/3/2003 4:32:39 PM AAviator wrote:


RV4, give it a rest.  the pilots are taking a 23% hit.  With my downgrade from captain to F/O, I''m looking at a 45-50% pay CUT!  Share and share alike?  How about the stock options?  TWU is slated for 34.7% of the total, the APA 32.5%.  Take a hike dude.

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The poor mistreated "LUMP SUM OPTION PENSION" Pilot has been screwed.

You can Vote No just like everyone else can . But you have no right in attempting to restrict my right to an expressed opinion. You take a hike DUDE!

TWU equals 35,000

Pilots equal what 12,000.

Using your math, who gets screwed? Mine says each Pilot gets almost 3 to 1 versus TWU.

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The pilots contributed 36.7 percent of the $1.8 billion in annual cuts, the MOST of any labor group. They also accounted for 28.4 percent of labor costs for the airline. The two figures were added and divided by 2, giving the pilots 32.5 percent of the stock options. That same formula was applied to each of the 10 groups.

 

[AirwAr]

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On 4/3/2003 6:55:20 PM jetdryvr wrote:

Agreement on CRJ-700 Aircraft and Supplement W Settlement
.
.
.

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WOW!! Thanks for granting my wish so quickly.