Shared Sacrifice? - Where is Eagle

[Buck]

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On 4/5/2003 10:00:32 PM Duditz wrote:

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On 4/5/2003 8:49:24 PM RV4 wrote:


What about the original topic?

Where is the Eagle Employee Shared Sacrifice Concession Package?

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All Eagle Employees have been working under an Employee Sacrifice Package for the entire term of their employment. It now appears that that will become shared as AA employees join us.

Since you cannot drum up support for your whining, it appears that reasonable persons have concluded that:

1) AE is making and has made a positive contribution to the bottom line of
AMR.

2) AA is burning cash.

3) AE employees - in any job classification - have not shared in a
compensation package equal to AA''s, (perhaps accounting in part, for 1)
above) in the past.

In short, we weren''t invited to dinner and don''t feel like helping with the dishes!






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Duditz:

What is your profession?

If you are a mechanic, you are represented by the TWU. This is the same "union" that has brought the ground workers this latest debacle of a T/A. The only reason you have not shared is because Jim Little negotiated your last mechanic TWU contract. You accuse RV4 of whining, sounds like you have been whining for years?

 

[Duditz]

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On 4/5/2003 8:49:24 PM RV4 wrote:


What about the original topic?

Where is the Eagle Employee Shared Sacrifice Concession Package?

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All Eagle Employees have been working under an Employee Sacrifice Package for the entire term of their employment. It now appears that that will become shared as AA employees join us.

Since you cannot drum up support for your whining, it appears that reasonable persons have concluded that:

1) AE is making and has made a positive contribution to the bottom line of AMR.

2) AA is burning cash.

3) AE employees - in any job classification - have not shared in a compensation package equal to AA's, (perhaps accounting in part, for 1) above) in the past.

In short, we weren't invited to dinner and don't feel like helping with the dishes!

 

[Cleared Direct]

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AAviator wrote:

Cleared direct,
Supp W dies with the ratification of the T/A. Its been deleted with the T/A. I don''t know what legal remedy you have. I can''t tell you how or why, but according to the APA web-site supp W is deleted. Exact word deleted.

Show me contactual language giving you ownership of the CRJ 700. The T/A shows that to now be "non exempt" flying.

You may be able to keep both seats on it, but it won''t be flying on or for , or on behalf of AA. So the next paint job on it may be a Mesa color, or an ASA color. Definitely not red white and blue.

51 seats and up is AA flying pending ratification.
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AAviator,

First let me make it very clear to you I am only trying to warn you of how AMR is going to hose furloughed AA pilots if this crazy TA ever passes. I would rather see the 70 seaters at AA with higher pay and retirement. I also have a seniority number on APA''s seniority list so I have a vested interest on both sides of this issue.

APA''s website does have a document that talks about Supplement W being deleted, but this was just a proposal before the agreed upon TA. In fact if you look at the latest TA and LOAs they reference Supplement W numerous times.

Here is the link to the latest TA with changes posted by the Taliban (PDP):

http://www.apapdp.org/pdf/section1.diffs.pdf

Their public website is:

http://www.apapdp.org

I guess below where the latest TA references Supplement W it is just a figment of my imagination:

___________________________

(6) Supplement W, Jets for Jobs, and Preference in Hiring.
Commuter Air Carriers that are majority owned by AMR Corp.
or an Affiliate shall be subject to Supplement W.
___________________________


Here again the alleged deleted Supplement W is referenced 4 times in the LOA "Agreement on CRJ-700 Aircraft and Supplement W Settlement":

___________________________

Agreement on CRJ-700 Aircraft and Supplement W Settlement


3. Furloughed American Airlines pilots shall displace into CJ Captain
positions on the CRJ-700 at American Eagle under the terms of Supplement W
to the Agreement; such displacement shall encompass all CJ Captain positions
currently occupied by Eagle CJ Captains and subject to displacement under the
terms of Supplement W.


4. Furloughed American Airlines pilots shall be recalled into vacant CJ
Captain positions created by the receipt of new CRJ-700 aircraft at American
currently occupied by Eagle CJ Captains and subject to displacement under the
terms of Supplement W.
Eagle pursuant to the terms of Supplement W. All furloughed American Airlines
pilots shall be eligible for such recall to American Eagle in accordance with their
American Airlines seniority, regardless of whether they have previously occupied
the CJ Captain bid status at American Eagle.


5. A furloughed American Airlines pilot shall be recalled into each vacant CJ
Captain position created by the receipt of a new EMB-145 aircraft at American
Eagle pursuant to the terms of Supplement W, provided that the addition of that
aircraft results in an increase in the overall American Eagle fleet count.
_______________________________


Here even again the alleged deleted Supplement W is referenced in the LOA "Small Jets Agreed Terms":


_______________________________

Small Jets Agreed Terms


5. Training Freeze
a. AA furloughees trained to an AE CJ CA position will incur a training freeze
identical to that for AE CJ CAs in Supplement W.
________________________________


I know it is too hard for you to get informed so how about just get a clue!

I don''t envy any AA labor group with the choices that they are given to choose from. At the same time I wish that I had at one vote on the pilot TA because it will definitely affect my career.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/5/2003 8:49:24 PM RV4 wrote:


What about the original topic?

Where is the Eagle Employee Shared Sacrifice Concession Package?

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I/ve been at Eagle since 1989. Over the years when you guys were paid profit sharing and LEAP checks, we asked "Why don/t we get something?" We were always told, "That is American, this is Eagle, two seperate airlines." Where were you then? Apparently Eagle employee''s weren/t a concern then. But now that you might have to take pay cuts all of a sudden we are part of the "team". Well AMFA Dave, screw you. You can/t have it both ways.

BTW, have you had any luck proving that A/A pays all of Eagle''s expenses?

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/5/2003 8:49:24 PM RV4 wrote:


What about the original topic?

Where is the Eagle Employee Shared Sacrifice Concession Package?

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I already replied about how the mechanics will be taking one for the "team" in a previous post, do you want to know what is happening to the gate agents at our station?

Apparently there was a supervisor position open at Eagle which they filled with an American agent supervisor who was going to be furloughed. She is now going through the agent ranks and firing whoever she can and filling those spots with A/A agents. Nice huh?

Anything else we can do for you Dave?

 

[RV4]

According to Jim Little at the Tulsa Convention Center "Boo Fest", there is nothing in the way of concessions going on at Eagle.

Instead of "Shared Sacrifice" this should be called "Targeted Sacrifice". Targeted at destroying the wages of the entire industry. Eagle will share in this sacrifice, it will just be a little delayed is all. But Eagle employees, along with others in the industry will feel this.

 

[AAviator]

Ok, Cleared Direct, I see what your talking about, but you have yet to see what I''m talking about. Duditz, you''re on the same tangent as Cleared Direct. I said supp w dies. It does. It is replaced with different, similar language. The flow through, eagle rights, flow back concept is still alive. I''ll give you that, as far as anything else, we''re on different subjects. Over 50 seats. Show me contractual language that shows eagle owning anything over 50 seats. Or owning any seats for that matter. The T/A pending ratification limits eagle to 50 seats. Yea, theres a time period for resolution, and a final action of arbitration, without a resolution. If, and when the T/A gets ratified, APA will own anything over 50 seats. So lets fast forward to an arbitrator. Who owns 50 seats and over? this is where you have to show contractual ownership. APA can do this. Eagle can''t, of course if you have the contractual right, you can present that.

Why did eagle transfer EMB 145''s to AX? scope compliance

Why is the MIA operation being sold? scope compliance

Why did eagle lose the EMB Eagle Connection arbitration? you don''t own that flying

Show me what flying you do own. I''d like to get informed.

 

[RV4]

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On 4/6/2003 9:28:45 AM AAviator wrote:


Ok, Cleared Direct, I see what your talking about, but you have yet to see what I'm talking about. Duditz, you're on the same tangent as Cleared Direct. I said supp w dies. It does. It is replaced with different, similar language. The flow through, eagle rights, flow back concept is still alive. I'll give you that, as far as anything else, we're on different subjects. Over 50 seats. Show me contractual language that shows eagle owning anything over 50 seats. Or owning any seats for that matter. The T/A pending ratification limits eagle to 50 seats. Yea, theres a time period for resolution, and a final action of arbitration, without a resolution. If, and when the T/A gets ratified, APA will own anything over 50 seats. So lets fast forward to an arbitrator. Who owns 50 seats and over? this is where you have to show contractual ownership. APA can do this. Eagle can't, of course if you have the contractual right, you can present that.

Why did eagle transfer EMB 145's to AX? scope compliance

Why is the MIA operation being sold? scope compliance

Why did eagle lose the EMB Eagle Connection arbitration? you don't own that flying

Show me what flying you do own. I'd like to get informed.

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You forgot one!

Why did Eagle and other employees of the industry take pay/benefit cuts?

Company Union Compliance

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/6/2003 9:34:57 AM RV4 wrote:

You forgot one!

Why did Eagle and other employees of the industry take pay/benefit cuts?

Company Union Compliance

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If it was up to you there would be even more cuts.

AMFA Dave, USAviation''s leading proponent of lowering airline worker wages.

 

[Buck]

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On 4/6/2003 4:06:15 PM will fix for food wrote:

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On 4/6/2003 9:34:57 AM RV4 wrote:

You forgot one!

Why did Eagle and other employees of the industry take pay/benefit cuts?

Company Union Compliance

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If it was up to you there would be even more cuts.

AMFA Dave, USAviation''s leading proponent of lowering airline worker wages.

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will fix for food:

Is Eagle part of AMR or not?

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/6/2003 4:37:13 PM Buck wrote:

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On 4/6/2003 4:06:15 PM will fix for food wrote:

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On 4/6/2003 9:34:57 AM RV4 wrote:

You forgot one!

Why did Eagle and other employees of the industry take pay/benefit cuts?

Company Union Compliance

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If it was up to you there would be even more cuts.

AMFA Dave, USAviation''s leading proponent of lowering airline worker wages.

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will fix for food:

Is Eagle part of AMR or not?

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Unfortunatly yes. I personally wish AMR would sell us though.

I find it interesting that you and Dave were arguing for furloughs before paycuts (I got mine, screw the new guy). But since that didn/t work out you want to take money out of the Eagle guys pockets to save a few cents in your checks (I got mine, screw the Eagle guy).

BTW, there are about 1000 Eagle mechanics who probably average about 18/hour. A 17.5% would be about 3.15 which would bring the average Eagle mech to 14.85 and would produce a yearly savings of around 6,552,000. Divide that by 12000 American mechanics and you would save 546 dollars per year or a little less than 2.10 a working day or 26 cents an hour. But hey, a 3.15/hour cut is little price to pay to ensure you can get your daily pop and candy bar.

 

[Buck]

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On 4/6/2003 510 PM will fix for food wrote:

will fix for food:

Is Eagle part of AMR or not?

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Unfortunatly yes. I personally wish AMR would sell us though.

I find it interesting that you and Dave were arguing for furloughs before paycuts (I got mine, screw the new guy). But since that didn/t work out you want to take money out of the Eagle guys pockets to save a few cents in your checks (I got mine, screw the Eagle guy).

BTW, there are about 1000 Eagle mechanics who probably average about 18/hour. A 17.5% would be about 3.15 which would bring the average Eagle mech to 14.85 and would produce a yearly savings of around 6,552,000. Divide that by 12000 American mechanics and you would save 546 dollars per year or a little less than 2.10 a working day or 26 cents an hour. But hey, a 3.15/hour cut is little price to pay to ensure you can get your daily pop and candy bar.



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I still stand my ground on furloughs. It is the TWU and American Airlines that are after the wage and benefits. You forget the topic of this thread. Why does Eagle not participate if it is called "Shared Sacrifice"? You admit they are part of AMR and it is AMR that has postered towards the bankruptcy courts.

Since you are whining about money, those who are going to be furloughed if this T/A is ratified will hit the street. However their replacenets, by seniority, will take a 17.5% base pay cut and then lose their license premiums on top of that. With a wage hovering around $21.50 an hour, a 17.5 % would place them at $17.74, then anpther $5.00 for their license, or $12.74 an hour. Is that about 40%? So the Eagle mechanic would be paid higher than the American Airlines mechanic.

It sounds as if you are advocating these concessions?

 

[planemech669]

Eagle''s share of the sacrifice was made when the AA pilots took our potential to grow away from us with the ASM and CRJ scopes.

There are no other plans for Eagle other than the current wage freezes for non-union employees and management. Trust me that is enough. You can''t get blood from an embalbed cadaver.

No, bankruptcy was not a threat and even with the concessions that have been hammered out, there is no guaranty that it still won''t happen.

 

[RV4]

AA Mechanics share was B-Scale, C-Scale, D-Scale, Flex Benefits, OSM's, and unilateral removal of our lump sum option at retirement.

THIS WASN'T ENOUGH!

How far back should we all be able to go, to get credit for sacrifice? That's just the point PAL, concessions do NOT fix bad management, it propagates it!

I am not trying to lower employees pay, the TWU does that for us!

For location of the advocate of lower payscales. Do a search on a alias j7915, that would be your guy.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/6/2003 920 PM Buck wrote:


"I still stand my ground on furloughs. It is the TWU and American Airlines that are after the wage and benefits.
You forget the topic of this thread. Why does Eagle not participate if it is called "Shared Sacrifice"?  "

Go back in the thread and reread my post around post number 40. Then come back to me and tell me how suspending negotiations and extending a 1998 pay scale for an additional two years is NOT a concession.

"You admit they are part of AMR and it is AMR that has postered towards the bankruptcy courts."

Yep.

"Since you are whining about money,"

Who started this thread? I was just replying to your incessant, "Why aren/t they taking pay cuts too" crying buddy.

"those who are going to be furloughed if this T/A is ratified will hit the street. However their replacenets, by seniority, will take a 17.5% base pay cut and then lose their license premiums on top of that.  With a wage hovering around $21.50 an hour, a 17.5 % would place them at $17.74, then anpther $5.00  for their license, or $12.74 an hour. Is that about 40%? So the Eagle mechanic would be paid higher than the American Airlines mechanic."

By replacement are you talking about a new hire or a furloughee that was called back to work? If you are talking about new hires, at Eagle they make 11.32/hour. I can guarantee you no Eagle mech makes more than an American mech at the same step even post concessions. But yes, a topped out Eagle mech does make more than a new hire American mech.

"It sounds as if you are advocating these concessions? "

I am just replying to your statements. If you can find me one statement where I said that yes you should or no you shouldn/t take pay cuts I will personally send you 17.5 percent of my pay. However, it is not my vote they are looking for, and I don/t feel right telling other people what to do. That doesn/t seem to bother you though, good job.

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