Awa, Us Air Chiefs Propose

[aafsc]

Gee, you mean like the career expectations that the TWA guys had...

Lecture someone else about merger fairness sport.

While I expect a large number of the U list to be placed behind even the most junior AWA pilot, what I cannot accpet is the wholesale staple of every furoughed pilot behind even the most junior AWA pilot.

What I am talking about is no windfall be created, either now, or in a few years time when all the "senior pappas" from Airways retire.

And career expectations are a double edged sword. Staples may very well be a fact of mergers, but so are Fences... And to force one usually causes another.

For that AWA new hire had no "career expectation" to ever fly anything larger than a 757, did he/she...? So in the interest of fairness, one should not always assume that a simple "staple" of entire portions of a senority list are necessarily the best thing.

Negotiation focused on fairness is the best thing.

Unless of course you are a selfish AAL pilot who's career has been enhanced off the backs of mergers like Air Cal, Reno and TWA...

[post="272607"][/post]​

I think all the AirCAl pilots and Reno (most) are still flying at AA. There are also about 500-600 TWA pilots still flying for AA in addition to 400 that were able to retire from AA. APA DID NOT staple ALL the TWA pilots. About half were stapled and the other half dovetailed with reduced seniority, guaranteed captain positions and some sort of fence around STL. The only union group that got totally stapled was the TW flight attendants.

 

[markkus757]

My solution to this would involve spending some of that $1.5 Billion on early reitrments. If(I know dreaming) you could somehow trim the most senior pilots for either group down to about 10-12 years of experience, this probably would not even be an issue. Long-term, an ideal situation would be to have a younger employee base to keep costs lower. When an airline has to furlough employees, it's always the people costing them less. I'm not saying it's fair or anything else, I'm just saying that's reality. To me, this would reduce a lot of hassle and probably prevent any further layoffs for the current pilots flying for both companies. Even if it's a disproportionate amount of pilots from US that "retire", the HP pilots now have widebody potential in their future by joining with US. they would've topped out in a 757. Now, they can expand with the company and be a part of the solution.

 

[Rico]

Oh yeah, and the other labor groups at TWA...?

Look, that is your business, but at the same time this is not.

Last thing any of us need is some American pilot piping in on something when your own company's history in this regard is far from spotless

 

[CapnCockroach]

I think all the AirCAl pilots and Reno (most) are still flying at AA. There are also about 500-600 TWA pilots still flying for AA in addition to 400 that were able to retire from AA. APA DID NOT staple ALL the TWA pilots. About half were stapled and the other half dovetailed with reduced seniority, guaranteed captain positions and some sort of fence around STL. The only union group that got totally stapled was the TW flight attendants.

[post="272733"][/post]​

Absolute total lie.

 

[CapnCockroach]

Welcome to the first steps of the pain you are all going to suffer.

If your leadership is smart they will do to U like AA did to TWA.. Staple them to the bottom and start unloading the crap AWA does not want.. Unload the U people at the same rate.. Your the buying company.. They are the dying company. Treat them as such.. U employee's feel entitled, they are not. Pilots especially feel entitled.. Read the posts.. I have been with U for 20 years so why should I have to go to the bottom. Simple.. Your the loser. Your leadership flew you into the ground. When you were making top buck and the AWA guys were making crap you thought "Bummer, lucky me".. Well now its the other way around. Why should the Pilot that got a job with AmericaWest have to be behind you at all!! Its their company. They built it, they should have the first right on any job.

AU. That is a perfect summary. Good job!!

 

[aafsc]

Absolute total lie.

[post="272738"][/post]​

Then tell me where I am mistaken. Or are you one of the ones that were stapled and laid off.

 

[justaumechanic]

You need to read your own posts if you want to talk about a cry baby!!

You have some feeling of entitlement!! AmericaWest owes you nothing.. They are the only ones interested in giving you any salvation at all. Beyond them there is no one..

So why are you entitled to anything they offer? You live in a fantasy world. The days of "Me me me" are over.. What are you left with if AWA does not buy you? Nothing.. US Airways is done. They have no money, no hope and no leadership. AmericaWest is your last hope.. If they walk away you will be out of a job. Plain and simple.

You just can't face that reality. However if you were offered a job at Southwest tomorrow you would start at the bottom and you would be loving every single min of it. Yet at US Airways you feel you are entitled to keep your seniority even though you are the ones being bought out. You are wrong. You are entitled to nothing but the paycheck you earned the week before..

The only winner in all of this is Lakefield, Seigel, Wolf, Gangwal and the rest of the merry bunch from CCY.. They got theirs and they are all laughing at the bank right now..

And you are wrong about being bitter.. I left on my own, no one asked me to go. No one sent me a "pink" slip and if I had stayed I would still be working. But the situation was dire and it gets more dire every single day. Thats the part employee's like you can't deal with. It was all great when you were making plenty of money and it was "F" the company.. Now when you find yourself at the bottom begging all of a sudden someone owes you something.. "I put in 20 years they owe me".. Your full of crap.. They owe you nothing.. The smart unions at AWA will give you exactly that.. Nothing.

As for respect.. None of us need yours.. If anyone has self interest on this board its you.. Plain and simple.. You can't handle the truth so you lash out at anyone and everyone that does not agree with you. Thats self interest.. Respect is earned, not given.

If the future is so bright with your merged company than what difference will your seniority make? None.. Everyone will be doing great.. No problems.. But thats not the case.. As AWA pulls down some of the U operation you want to jockey to protect yourself with your U senority at the expense of the AWA employee..

Face it..

jastamechanic is one of the chief crybabies on here, long since departed from this company, yet bitter as a rotten lemon and wishes nothing other than our failure to "justify" his pathetic grudge towards US Airways...

As for the American fellow...
Yeah, it really doesn't, since being at the bottom of the US Airways System Senority List, I expect (and should be at the bottom of any merged list too. So I do not "have a dog in this fight".

All I want to see is something as fair as possible for all involved. And especially those I work with daily, that have invested so many years into this place.

And as for AAL, you will always stand as the best example of outlandish self-interest at work. No matter if you supposedly gained nothing from those three mergers (while almost everyone from TWA is currently furloughed instead of you). You will still always have our total lack of respect...

[post="272732"][/post]​

 

[aafsc]

Oh yeah, and the other labor groups at TWA...?

Look, that is your business, but at the same time this is not.

Last thing any of us need is some American pilot piping in on something when your own company's history in this regard is far from spotless

[post="272737"][/post]​

First, I am not an AA pilot.

Second, since you seem to be misinformed, I was making it clear that not all TWA union groups were totally stapled. Only the F/As were.

 

[SpinDoc]

Welcome to the first steps of the pain you are all going to suffer.

Integration of the seniority lists with all the unions on the property is going to be a huge mess..

UNLESS........

US Airways dumps protection provisions
of all of the union contracts at the 11th
hour during BK exit.

They did it before with PIT leases and
other debt, and Jerry Glass is a
magician of sorts when it comes to
picking apart contracts.

Not saying it WILL happen, only that
it COULD, despite what 700UW and
PITBull are going to say.....

 

[AAviator]

Absolute total lie.

[post="272738"][/post]​

CC, you're dead wrong. AAFSC is correct. Maybe the active Ex-TWA number is off, but he's pretty much dead on.

 

[AAviator]

Rico, I have no dog in this fight. And you're taking my comments entirely too personally. Just because U has 2k pilots on furlough, some with 15+ years, doesn't mean their "experience" and dedication should put them in front of an AWA guy who was hired yesterday. My only comment/opinion was and is, and will remain: Expect a sizeable portion of U pilots to get stapled.
You have an extremely difficult hand to play, and unless ALPA does for you what they did for the shuttle guys, you'll see some sort of a staple.

Before you say AA has the worst reputation in the industry on integrations, please remember SW stapled both TransStar, and Morris pilots................... h34r:

 

[AP Tech]

Sounds like some will never get back on the "big iron" and are going to become "lifer's" on the Barbie Jets!!!!!! Or as the company says quit complaining....U voted for it

 

[bwipilot]

AAviator,

Had a great conversation with a former Morris pilot/current SW pilot. His opion was that he got a great deal getting bought out by SWA. Hard to give SWA a bad rep with the Morris deal considering all Morris pilots got a pay raise or kept their pay rate when hired over to SWA.

 

[700UW]

UNLESS........
US Airways dumps protection provisions
of all of the union contracts at the 11th
hour during BK exit.

They did it before with PIT leases and
other debt, and Jerry Glass is a
magician of sorts when it comes to
picking apart contracts.

Not saying it WILL happen, only that
it COULD, despite what 700UW and
PITBull are going to say.....

[post="272745"][/post]​

There are steps to be followed, the company cannot file a motion to abrogate a contract and it just happen.

There are nine steps to be met and there has to be hearings held on it before the judge can rule. Go read Section 1113 and maybe you will finally understand it since I have told you several times all ready.

 

[delldude]

There are steps to be followed, the company cannot file a motion to abrogate a contract and it just happen.

There are nine steps to be met and there has to be hearings held on it before the judge can rule. Go read Section 1113 and maybe you will finally understand it since I have told you several times all ready.

[post="272810"][/post]​

so how did they do it at UAL very recently?
there was threat and amfa negotiated as did several others including 141 i believe.