Seniority/merger

[UseYourHead]

How many mergers have you been through?

Yes, there are many people from both side that will have one grip or another, that is called comprimise as opposed to one side or the other getting there way 100%...that will not happen.

What ever happens will be fair and equitable, that is the process and it works.

After myself living through 4 of these I say this from experience and working with folks from 4 different lists over a 20 year period. Were everyone of then happy? No, but none had any more of valid reason for being anymore happy or unhappy than the next guy.

If you go into this with an open mind and motivations not rooted in greed (your personal gain in some way at the expense of others) you will be okay with the outcome.

It really is a no brainer....

If you have been through 4 mergers you would know that most don't come out of the process feeling they received "fair and equitable" treament.  This merger will result in furloughs and displacements.  They always do. Many will be Amwest folks.  Ask them afterwards how fair and equitable it all was... for that matter, then ask TWA, Western, and Pan AM just to name a few.

[post="268766"][/post]​

 

[luv2fly]

How many mergers have you been through?

Your question is irrelevant. Does it make me more qualified to say 5?  How about 6?  That make you feel better?

Yes, there are many people from both side that will have one grip or another, that is called comprimise as opposed to one side or the other getting there way 100%...that will not happen.

My assertion has never been that one side will "get their way 100%"  Both sides will suffer,... some more than others.  In this case it will be AmWest.

What ever happens will be fair and equitable, that is the process and it works.
It is a process.  I"ll give you that.  Why does it work?  Because it results in a new list?  That should make those furloughed and displaced feel much better.  Your screwed, but hey, we had a process, and guess what???  It worked! :down:

After myself living through 4 of these I say this from experience and working with folks from 4 different lists over a 20 year period. Were everyone of then happy?

My experience has been different.  I have worked with those from 3 different carriers on one list, and many had legitimate gripes.  Call it reality.  Call it life, but don't call it fair and equitable.

It really is a no brainer....

Agreed

[post="268783"][/post]​

 

[UseYourHead]

Soooo,

If you were king for a day, what would the answer be?

BTW, I do not agree that AWA pilots will get any worse of a deal than US Airways folks; I do not have a crystal ball.

I am optimistic that a fair and equitable integrated list will be the end result, and the arbitrator responsible for that will be only considering that goal...that is a good thing.

As far as the relevance of the question "How many mergers have you been through", I believe it does matter to speak from personal experience. I personally have lived throgh my number changing overnight from 1700 to 3700 (the first time, and yet after all the whining from those around me I still did my first Captain upgrade in year 4).

All along the way I could have complained, said it coulda, shoulda, woulda as did those around me often times...guess what? Life went on, my career went on, people retired, I moved up, flew every airplane I wanted to, was based eventually where I wanted to be, etc.

I could focus on what ifs, or that other guy has my seat, whatever. So I have accually lived through these events 4 times, and IMHO that is very different than reading about them, or studying them.

Therefore, I can say from experience that this merger (should it occur) will follow a process (ALPA merger policy) and that WHATEVER the outcome, I will support it, and be happy, mark my words

Like I said, we should just all relax & enjoy the ride!

[post="268835"][/post]​

 

[luv2fly]

Soooo,


Life went on, my career went on, people retired, I moved up, flew every airplane I wanted to, was based eventually where I wanted to be, etc.

Therefore, I can say from experience that this merger (should it occur) will follow a process (ALPA merger policy) and that WHATEVER the outcome, I will support it, and be happy, mark my words

[post="268847"][/post]​

Kudos for you. Did everyone else get to be based where they wanted to be?
Yes, you will follow whatever guidelines are set forth by ALPA's merger policy. So will everyone else, so please quit patting yourself on the back.
Reading your assertion has me believing that mergers are nothing but a ray of sunshine, and that at the end of the day will have us all holding hands singing kumbaya.
BTW, do you work for U or AmWest? For some reason, I am betting it is U.

 

[Twicebaked]

AWA is not buying US for the last time!!!!!!!!

It is a "merger" to integrate two companies sponsored by investers and a holding company which will be run buy AWA management. THEY ARE NOT BUYING US. The seniority is a moot point. US has just as much right to staple AWA employees at the bottom then as you people feel they can do to US. This is getting soooooooooooo unbelievably old and selfish.

 

[twoturnin]

The good folks in KPHX had better hope the "WHOLE" AW team is the one that stays NOT the one in RIDC in KPIT -buy them out and send them on their way---the big picture is not the contracts or the senority stuff but the management team---ask any ex PIA or PSA person---no marketing program or management team has been on this property in the last 15 yrs that I've seen---well can't blame it all on Uncle Ed and Randy M the contracts did handcuff them as well---of course this is only my opinion. Two

 

[ClueByFour]

Oh ya, it doesn't matter, there is a process that protects eveyone equally, as it should be.

[post="268641"][/post]​

Two words: career expectations.

AAA ALPA will lose and lose large in arbitration on this very point.

 

[widgeon850]

Two words: career expectations.

AAA ALPA will lose and lose large in arbitration on this very point.

[post="269906"][/post]​

If this deal happens, it could very well be a smooth transition. Neutral parties financing the integration of the airlines with strengths on both sides. There are similar aircraft, except the widebodies, on both sides. The widebodies are not touchable except the very senior on the U side so it's an automatic fence. Most likely there will be little movement between bases for pilots and if fenced properly, should be no problem. The integrated strengths of both airlines under the superior management of Doug and company should be a boon to all. It's time to kick some ass and have pride in the possibilities this integration. This could reverse some of the screw ups of the PSA debacle.

 

[PBRmeASAP]

How many mergers have you been through?

Yes, there are many people from both side that will have one grip or another, that is called comprimise as opposed to one side or the other getting there way 100%...that will not happen.

What ever happens will be fair and equitable, that is the process and it works.

After myself living through 4 of these I say this from experience and working with folks from 4 different lists over a 20 year period. Were everyone of then happy? No, but none had any more of valid reason for being anymore happy or unhappy than the next guy.

If you go into this with an open mind and motivations not rooted in greed (your personal gain in some way at the expense of others) you will be okay with the outcome.

It really is a no brainer....

[post="268783"][/post]​

You must be USAirways

 

[UseYourHead]

I agree widgeon.

If this deal happens, it could very well be a smooth transition. Neutral parties financing the integration of the airlines with strengths on both sides. There are similar aircraft, except the widebodies, on both sides. The widebodies are not touchable except the very senior on the U side so it's an automatic fence. Most likely there will be little movement between bases for pilots and if fenced properly, should be no problem. The integrated strengths of both airlines under the superior management of Doug and company should be a boon to all. It's time to kick some ass and have pride in the possibilities this integration. This could reverse some of the screw ups of the PSA debacle.

[post="270274"][/post]​

 

[heyray]

Management is not in RIDC PIT, they are in Crystal City....just empty suits in PIT

 

[FLYAWAY]

The integrated strengths of both airlines under the superior management of Doug and company should be a boon to all. It's time to kick some ass and have pride in the possibilities this integration.

[post="270274"][/post]​

Could not have said it better. The only part of your post I disagree with is fencing off aircraft. Protecting a base is a different matter because it's the same as your home. I am US/PI with enough senority for our 76/75, when(if) the companies are joined, no one should be prevented from flying A/C that produce revenue for OUR company. If nothing else, it would become demoralizing to be senior enough to fly an A/C but not allowed to because of where you "came from".

 

[767jetz]

That was just the thing... UAL ALPA and UAL AFA didn't want to play by the rules.

[post="268498"][/post]​

This is so untrue. First of all, the UA/US situation in 2000 was far different. No one was in bankruptcy. UA was owned by the employees at the time. Bought and paid for directly from our pocket. it was a straight out aquisition, not a merger. UA was using the employee's cash to purcahse another airline at far above market price. UA called it a "market clearing" price to discourage a biding war.

So for AWA employees reading the one sided posts of the US employees, who bash UA for being unfair, or bloodthirsty, etc. etc., please realize that you are hearing only one side of the story. Look at the facts and it is not hard to see the motivation.

For years, employees of the bigger airlines (read, AA, DAL, UAL) have been counting on the demise of UAIR.

[post="268498"][/post]​

Not true in UA's case. UA generates over $200 Million in revenue per year through the US code share. Why would we want US to go away and lose that revenue when we do not have the ability to replace it? US routes would just go to the competition.

This is why you will probably see an extension of the code share to include AWA if this merger goes through. Remeber that UA and Air Canada are founding partners of STAR.

They wrongly believe that if we didn't take concessions, and if our pensions weren't terminated, their companies would not come after them.

[post="268498"][/post]​

Again not true for UA. Maybe AA, since the AA employees have been stalking the UA employees on this subject ever since the pension issue came into play.

To illustrate my point of how petty these people are and can be, there is a current situation where some United pilots are refusing to allow jB pilots to non-rev in their jumpseats.

[post="268498"][/post]​

Again a misrepresentation. This is a very small problem that is being inflated by some to justify their opinions. UA and ALPA are aware of the situation and rectifying it. It amounts to a small handful of captains. If it were more than 5 or 10 guys I'd be surprised.

But then again US has their fair share of jerks as well. Reference a certain captain who frequents USaviation spreading his speculations as fact, and is dispised by his own employees.

Then there are the few guys I personally encountered at US in 2000 who lectured me on how they were entitled to UA's long haul widebody flying.

The UAL pilots want that family of four out on the street to protect the cushy jobs they have!

[post="268498"][/post]​

Cushy??!!! :blink: You're kidding, right?

-------------------------------

So for the record, most UA employees are only concerned with rectifying our own difficulties and emerging a strong and competitive airline.

We do not want to see US Air fold.

If this merger goes through we will be happy for the US employees who will be saved from extinction, and hope that the AWA employees are not adversely affected. We only advise the AWA employees to tread carefully and ensure adequate protections for yourselves during the process.

And honestly, based on past experience, we are happy that a US/AWA combination eliminates the possibility of a UA/US combination. There are some in this industry who have been trying to force USAir on us in one form or another for many, many years. Beyond a mutually beneficial code share arrangement, we did not see any benefit to our company or our careers. Every situation is different, and I hope yours works out well for all parties involved.

 

[firstamendment]

Hey, There was enough BS from both sides of the US/UA mess. Please, move on.

AWA,
I and most could care less about your PHX or LAS bases. Remember, we may be a bit more senior, but most are settled where they want to be with a handful of ex-PSA folk maybe coming in.

As far as the name, most of us could care less once again. The vast majority of fellow employees I have spoken with just want every person who works in CCY to go far, far away and let your, what seems to be, competent team run the airline. NO PROBLEM with the headquarters in Tempe.

We are not the senior bitter monsters we are portrayed as. As a f/a, I am at your topped out payscale and you have more vacation days than me. So much for higher labor cost. I am perfectly ok with fences from PHX and LAS for , say, 5 years. I think we all just need to have faith that this WILL work.

I have always said a merger with you guys would fit well. Our Europe and Carribean with your west coast and western Mexico, along with Alaska and Vancouver fits like a glove.

With the 20 or so A350's, I could easily see PHX/LAS - LGW/FRA, and MAN, yes Manchester, UK....not to mention Hawaii, FLL to increase Pax with Caribbean and central America or nonstops from PHX to South America.

If this is going to happen, let's work TOGETHER to make this work.

IF we at US are a bit excited, it's because we have been beaten down so much that there is no place to go but up. Hell, we just want our jobs. If your management team is as good as I hear, they will merge it slowly and think all decisions out with clear thinking and not in panic mode.

Good luck to ALL of us.

 

[StewGuy86]

Firstamendment--

Very well said, and I couldn't agree more. I think the AWA employees have little to fear from the seniority standpoint and I DO think a fence for the first few years would be a reasonable expectation. But even if there were no fence, I doubt there'd be a flood of senior dinosaurs moving to the desert from the East Coast.

I say there are far more positives to this possible deal than negatives....ESPECIALLY if it means that the US senior mgmt. in Arlington is kicked to the curb and if it means Jerry Glass has to find another group of employees to terrorize.