Sandra Bland

[Ms Tree]

I think there are a few things in play.

First off I think it can be agreed that in a perfect world when stopped by LEO's it is best to comply and do as requested. The caveat with this is that this assumes that the commands given by LEO's will be rational, just and reasonable.

That begs the question. What is rational, just and reasonable? I do agree with the contention that the 4th has taken a beating (from both sides). I believe that for probable cause there needs to be a clear and present danger or at least a certain level of probability that a clear an present danger is possible. Given that standard there is no way the actions of Bland rose to the level of a threat and she should never have been asked to leave her car much less been arrested.

Secondly is LEO discretion. I understand that LEO's need to be able to be able to address issues on the street and that no rule book will ever be able to address ever possible contingency. Having said that, the idea that results can vary depending upon someone's mood or tone of voice or a few/many bad words is in my opinion ludacris. I do not care if someone pissed in the LEO's Cheerios that morning. Leave that crap at home or find a new job. In this regard, being a cop is like being a retail clerk. You do not have the right to take out your pissy mood on your customers. They can be pissy to you , deal with it. I deal with it every day and I keep my mouth shut, do my job and send them on their way.

LEO's are there to enforce the LAW and only the law. They are not there to enforce etiquette or protect their sensibilities. There is no law that says I have to be cheery when I get pulled over.

Yes Bland should have exited the vehicle. No she should never have been asked. She was not a threat. Being rude is not a threat. The cop should have given her the ticket/warning and moved on. Instead, he decided for what ever reason that he had to prove how big his dick was. As a result, a simple traffic stop escalated into a confrontation and arrest and a woman died in jail.

The fact that she may have killed her self anyway is irrelevant. She died in jail and that never needed to happen because she should not have been in jail in the first place.

 

[Ifly2]

I largely agree with Tree regarding the Bland case and traffic stops and someone who is stopped With Probable Cause and/or legitimate suspicion of a crime, or offense. Police have a duty to observe, and take appropriate action when necessary. They should have some discretion. Some. They should use that appropriately, rationally and reasonably.

The motto is "Protect and Serve", not "Under My Thumb".

It is a duty, and a responsibility, not a license to play tough guy.


My comments above are in response to Hackman's support of Random Testing and other forms and instances where There Is Not Probable Cause or even mere suspicion or any other reason to suspect that an individual citizen is committing or has committed a crime, and citizens' 4th Amendment Rights are suspended merely in the interest of people "Feeling" Safe.

Hackman has stated clearly that he supports your 4th Amendment rights being ignored,while insisting that his 2nd Amendment Rights be unabridged and without restriction.

 

[Ms Tree]

There are many who have no problem sacrificing rights. They draw the line when it is their rights. Then it a 'different story'.

I think if the courts dealt more severely with LOE's who violated the 4th people such as Bland would not feel as reluctant following LEO orders knowing that justice would prevail in the end. Then again, if violations were dealt with more severely, the violations would probably be far less frequent. The LEO in Blands case would have given her a warning and gone about his day.

 

[KCFlyer]

Yes Bland should have exited the vehicle. No she should never have been asked. She was not a threat. Being rude is not a threat. The cop should have given her the ticket/warning and moved on. Instead, he decided for what ever reason that he had to prove how big his dick was. 

 
And therein lies the problem...damned if you do and damned if you don't.  She shouldn't have been asked to exit the vehicle...but I've heard more than once...some from Law enforcement officers, that when you are pulled over, stay in your car with your hands on the steering wheel.  Someone getting out of a car without being asked is often times viewed as a threat.  So yeah...she should never have been asked to get out of the car...but she shouldn't have exited on her own either.   I've only been asked to get out of the car once - and the officer did that before he ever started talking to me about anything.   Other times I've been stopped and never asked to get out of the car.  

 

[Ms Tree]

 

 
And therein lies the problem...damned if you do and damned if you don't.  She shouldn't have been asked to exit the vehicle...but I've heard more than once...some from Law enforcement officers, that when you are pulled over, stay in your car with your hands on the steering wheel.  Someone getting out of a car without being asked is often times viewed as a threat.  So yeah...she should never have been asked to get out of the car...but she shouldn't have exited on her own either.   I've only been asked to get out of the car once - and the officer did that before he ever started talking to me about anything.   Other times I've been stopped and never asked to get out of the car.  

 

Are we talking about the same video? The video I saw shows her in the car up until the point where the officer reaches in and starts pulling her out. I did not see her get out on her own.

 

[KCFlyer]

   

Are we talking about the same video? The video I saw shows her in the car up until the point where the officer reaches in and starts pulling her out. I did not see her get out on her own.

 
I was responding to YOUR comment, which was "Yes, Bland should have exited the vehicle.  No, she should never have been asked".  I agree, she should never have been asked, but had she exited the vehicle....especially as a black person....without being asked/order by the officer, he may well have pulled out his tazer sooner than he did.  Can't trust those darkies ya know. 

 

[Ms Tree]

I was responding to YOUR comment, which was "Yes, Bland should have exited the vehicle.  No, she should never have been asked".  I agree, she should never have been asked, but had she exited the vehicle....especially as a black person....without being asked/order by the officer, he may well have pulled out his tazer sooner than he did.  Can't trust those darkies ya know.

Ok. I misunderstood. That makes more sense.

 

[delldude]

 
I was responding to YOUR comment, which was "Yes, Bland should have exited the vehicle.  No, she should never have been asked".  I agree, she should never have been asked, but had she exited the vehicle....especially as a black person....without being asked/order by the officer, he may well have pulled out his tazer sooner than he did.  Can't trust those darkies ya know. 

 
The point where he asked her to put the smoke out was when she was establishing probable cause for a search at minimum. She was exhibiting questionable behavior as he asked her several times if she was alright. He was well within his right for her own protection and his.

 

[Dog Wonder]

'Yall know how I lean..............we all cross the line from time to time...but WTF anymore here?

Steroids and antihistamines.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

This is an interesting statistical analysis. It is hard to believe that there have been 140 suicides in Texas jails in 6 years (nearly 2/month). Here is a portion of the article:


WLS By Chuck Goudie

Tuesday, August 04, 2015 10:56PM

"CHICAGO (WLS) -- Since news of Sandra Bland's death in a Waller County, Texas, jail broke three weeks ago, there have been questions about jailhouse suicides: how common are they and what are the circumstances? The answers may surprise you.

The single leading cause of death in U.S. jails is suicide and the number is increasing. But Sandra Bland didn't fit the portrait of a typical jailhouse suicide according to new data from the Justice Department. The majority of prisoners who commit suicide behind bars are not black women locked up after a traffic stop. They are white men in jail on a serious criminal charge.

When Bland was found hanged last month, she was the 140th suicide in Texas county jails the past six years, but the only African-American woman according to law enforcement data.

Texas has the second highest number of jail suicides in the nation each year; and according to the newly released report by the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics, it is a number that is increasing across the U.S."

http://abc7chicago.com/news/new-stats-show-sandra-bland-death-was-a-jailhouse-aberration/903447/

 

[eolesen]

This is an interesting statistical analysis. It is hard to believe that there have been 140 suicides in Texas jails in 6 years (nearly 2/month). Here is a portion of the article:

Yeah, but not really once you look at it normalized for the deaths per 100,000 inmates.

Texas, California, and Florida have the highest prison populations, and account for somewhere between 25 & 30% of the nation's incarcerated population.

When you've got that many behind bars, statistically, you're going to have more suicides.

In the article you linked from WLS, they look at Illinois' suicides as a raw number; normalized per 100K, IL's rate is almost identical to TX's.

Go into the BJS's report and look at Table 28 for the comparison. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mljsp0013st.pdf

 

[Ifly2]

Well

That makes it ok then

 

[SparrowHawk]

When you have that many behind bars, you have to many asinine laws.  Enough to make you want to take your life.
 
If a turn signal infraction lands you in a county jail then there is no Liberty, just Tyranny.
 
Bottom line is she shouldn't have been behind bars to begin with. A Gun and Badge DO NOT grant additional rights.

 

[Ifly2]

And, again...

 

[townpete]

Grand Jury Issues No Indictments in Jail Death of Sandra Bland
 
Another liberal narrative goes up in smoke...