Rumor has it DL PHL-LHR

[WorldTraveler]

your excuses are nothing but unadulterated lies.

DL carries more LOCAL ATL revenue to Europe than AA carries in local revenue to Europe from ANY of AA's hubs, including JFK and DFW.

AA and UA split the local market from ORD to Europe.

DFW is simply a much smaller market to Europe than ATL.

DL's DTW and MSP hubs are larger than what AA carries in local market to Europe.


the simple fact is that DL CONTROLS its hubs far better than AA does and because of that DL is able to grow its network in other carrier hubs where AA and UA cannot.

there simply is no other reality.

I would hardly expect you to acknowledge the value of an equity position ON TOP OF a JV since AA has none but anyone with even a little knowledge of business understands that a JV is a sharing of revenues while an equity position in a company provides return that is above what any company has in a solely marketing agreement.

VS is the only carrier in which DL has both a JV and an equity arrangement - but AM is likely to be the next - and, not surprisingly, DL has increased its equity position in AM from its initial purchase.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

it is no more subpar that AA's 321s on a transcon market.
 

 
This has got to be near the top of your many stupid comments you routinely write while becoming unhinged.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

tell me which DL hubs either AA or UA serve with their own metal longhaul aircraft.
 

 
Why don't you tell us how great the economy of DTW / MI is doing these days ... ... ...

 

[WorldTraveler]

because an AA 321 is supposed to be superior to a DL 757?

I think not.

a widebody is a widebody and a narrowbody is a narrowbody.

further, the 321T isn't operated on any TATL routes so what AA does there is of no consequence.

so what AA does on its 321Ts doesn't matter one iota to DL's PHL-LHR route.

DL's 757 int'l aircraft are configured BETTER than what US uses from PHL to Europe.

where is the 'subpar' comment regarding US' 757s?

DTW, the airport, serves the entire region, not just the city of Detroit.

 

[737823]

I will say I have been a critic of the 75L to markets like CDG/LHR from BOS. When AA announced the 75L cabin improvement project in 2008 it was intended to open new markets that wouldn't be viable with the 763 (or 772). Instead we saw a number of 763 routes like BOS-CDG/LHR, JFK-CDG, ORD-DUB/MAN downgauged. Yes a few new markets have been open mostly in Northern Brazil. AA and UA were the last 757 holdouts, AA jumped in early 2009 and UA gained a large fleet through the CO merger.

To DLs credit they are providing an acceptable product with flat beds in BE and AVOD throughout the whole plane neither of which AA is offering (unlike DL and UA). The LAA 75Ls aren't great but have heard the LUS birds are horrid.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

it is worth noting that DL BOS-LHR which was a 757 for several years (alongside AF) is, IIRC, supposed to be a 764 by next summer.

DL and AA have both upgraded their flights to BSB to 767-300ERs; both were operated by 757s.

thank you for acknowledging the work DL has done to upgrade its int'l 757s, Josh.
and, yes, DL's 757s offer the same economy cabin in-flight product as on the widebodies which have AVOD thruout the entire int'l fleet; the only difference is that the lie flat business class seats are not all direct aisle access on the 757.

the int'l 757 is the same aircraft that is used on the JFK-LAX transcons (3 of 8 flights) and right now 1 of the SFO flights (or that is all DL is selling right now but the numbers will go up as the conversions increase).

also, the first domestic 757s are coming out of upgrades and the most noticeably customer difference is the overhead bins that hold rollerboards on their side instead of laying flat - in order to hold considerably more baggage.

 

[737823]

Do you mean BOS-CDG? It has been 763 (DL metal) in the peak summer late May-mid August and ran 757 the rest of its season along with upto two AF frequencies 744/77W/772.

BOS-LHR (re)launched 2x 764 in April 2011, shortly thereafter the second flight went to 757, however DL did not sell or market BE. Unsure who/how the seats were given away, maybe they did something like AA did with BOS-SNN where the domestic FC 757 seats were available for Elites free of charge. DL however deployed the angle flat 16J 752 at that time.

Now the route is 1x 764/763 along with VS 333/789.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL only operates its own BOS-CDG flight during the summer. it was a 757 in 2013 and a 763ER this summer.

yes, you are right on BOS-LHR.

DL is focusing on frequency more than size at LHR with more 763s to be there next summer than this year where there were more 764s... but LAX and PHL will be new. that in part explains why the 764s will be showing up in other locations including more at CDG and AMS.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

 
P.S. - "nlike any of AA's JVs, DL owns equity in VS which means DL has twice the ability to work with VS" (emphasis mine).  Seriously?  Talk about ridiculous.  I swear - this stuff just gets more hysterical with each passing day, but now it's just getting so sloppy as to be embarrassing, even by what were already incredibly low "best in commercial aviation" standards.

I just saw your reference to his quote, "DL has twice the ability to work with VS" because it owns equity?

You can't make stuff like that up. Comedy gold indeed.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I wouldn't expect you to understand the benefits of both a JV and an equity position, esp. since it involves seats on the board, which is what DL has with all of AM, G3, and VS.

can you tell me what equity positions other US carriers have - along with the seats on the board they have on foreign airlines?

you do understand that a JV includes at least revenue sharing and in some cases sharing of profits PLUS as a shareholder DL gains benefits from the profits that VS makes proportionate to DL's stockholding? you do understand those concepts, don't you?

commavia often uses the term "laughable" and "funny" to really mean "DL really does have an advantage that AA doesn't so I'll just overcompensate in the opposite direction.

since he does it with such regularity it is easy to spot.

DL DOES have a double advantage in having an ownership and equity stake in VS - whether you or he understand it or can admit it.

 

[commavia]

I just saw your reference to his quote, "DL has twice the ability to work with VS" because it owns equity?

You can't make stuff like that up. Comedy gold indeed.

 
Indeed.  Equity ownership provides no discernible advantage to two partners' ability to integrate their global networks via JV/ATI.  Equity ownership has been Delta's preferred method of locking down partners (Virgin Atlantic, Aeromexico, GOL) in order to sure up its position in markets where it is smaller/weaker than AA or United (LHR, Mexico, Brazil, respectively) - and thus, because Delta does it, it must be brilliant and wonderful and amazing and so much better than anything AA could ever possibly do.  But setting all that aside, how would one even magically arrive at the fascinating conclusion that Delta owning 49% of Virgin Atlantic amounts to "twice" the ability to cooperate?  By that measure, would Delta owning 24.5% allow the two airlines to enjoy 1.5x the ability to cooperate?  This math is comical - per usual.

 

[WorldTraveler]

as usual, you miss the point.

The JV gives DL a share in VS' profits ABOVE what they would get with just a JV.

AA has NO equity in any carrier... and Parker doesn't believe in free markets and paying out distributions to its own employees so it is not surprising that AA doesn't understand the concept regarding airlines either.

and DL DOES have the ability to know more about its equity partners' business than a JV would allow. DL had access to VS' financial results for VS' entire system which is undoubtedly part of why DL moved pretty quickly to convince VS to cancel several Asia and Africa flights and redeploy the assets to the TATL market that is part of the DL/VS JV.

You can absolutely be assured that AA has no information on how well any of its JV partners do on any part of their networks outside of the JV.

DL cannot coordinate schedules or pricing with AM or G3 but as an equity partner with a seat on the board, DL has access to AM's strategic plans, profitability by route, and has the ability to shape AM and G3's strategies.

if you can't see how an equity position and a JV both work including when they occur at the same time, then you really have no business commenting on what is going on.

it is not laughable but really quite sad that someone who paints themselves as knowledgeable about the industry as you do says things like you have here about JVs and ownership positions.

anyone with even a basic business level of corporations should be able to understand the differences and benefits of each.

 

[jcw]

Owning less that 50% of any entity does not give you control of it - as a matter of fact - its not preferred by most companies (not talking about airlines) - locking capital up in another airline is risky as airlines have a long history of losing money.  One of Richard's favorite saying is - the easiest way to become a millionaire is start with a billion dollars and buy and airline - that is Branson - I'm referring to
 
If you are suggesting DL is providing undue influence over the entities they have minority stakes in - you are suggesting they are breaking the security laws of the countries of the other airlines

 

[topDawg]

 
This has got to be near the top of your many stupid comments you routinely write while becoming unhinged.

well it boils down to what we are talking about. 
 
airplane for airplane the 757 kicks the crap out of a A321. you aren't going to see a 757 struggle to LAX-BOS unless its a really really odd day. The 321 (and 739) are constantly missing it during the winter.
 
Now if we are talking about cost then the A321 is cheaper to operate.
 
If we are talking hard product then the AA 321s are nice, I'm not sure I would say the comparable product is better. The J seats and I think Y seats on the AA 321/DL75S are the same exact seats.  
 

My theory is that (if DL is using the AMR slot), the DL757 is testing the waters to see what business traffic materializes next summer. The actual strategic goal may be to eventually turn the route over to VS, which would provide a closer competitive product to BA's existing PHL-LHR services.  

I don't think that'll happen. I can't see DL getting the traffic for a Virgin 789 or 333. 
 

CX is adding HKG and Hainan Airlines flies to PEK
 
TY is adding IST

okay....but AA doesn't have a JV with any of those carriers 
nor does UA with TK. 
 
So are we comparing codeshares or JVs? if its codeshares your missing a few airlines(CM for example), if its JV then you over did it with AA/US 

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

well it boils down to what we are talking about. 
 
airplane for airplane the 757 kicks the crap out of a A321. you aren't going to see a 757 struggle to LAX-BOS unless its a really really odd day. The 321 (and 739) are constantly missing it during the winter.
 
Now if we are talking about cost then the A321 is cheaper to operate.
 
If we are talking hard product then the AA 321s are nice, I'm not sure I would say the comparable product is better. The J seats and I think Y seats on the AA 321/DL75S are the same exact seats.  

 
I was talking about the on-board product on the JFK transcons AA offers on the A321 (which I believe WT was trashing).
 

DTW, the airport, serves the entire region, not just the city of Detroit.

 
So why don't you tell us how great the economy of the entire region is?  That will answer your question why UA and AA aren't eager to fly international out of DTW.