DL to start LAX-LHR, VS to start ATL-LHR

[MAH4546]

And American has plenty of tricks up its sleeves too, especially at LAX, and it will always - remember this word, always - be larger in seats, perform better, have more revenue share and more market share than Delta at LAX in every sense of the word. I know that's difficult reality for you to face.
 
Delta and United can fight for the second fiddle, but Delta still needs to figure out how to steal United's far more loyal LA flyer base.
 
Congrats on Delta being the largest international carrier (love how you fail to mention the metric or by what amount). What happens if Delta succeeds in its attempt to move its money bleeding Haneda-Los Angeles route to Honolulu (it applied and was rejected)? Or if AA launches Los Angeles-Auckland next winter? Or if UA re-enters Los Angeles-Frankfurt? Or if AA takes over a British Airways frequency? Any of those changes the order.
 
The DFW-LAX add isn't retaliatory. Delta failed to get Dallas Love Field gates, so its simply starting the market from DFW instead.

 

[Kev3188]

good... DL is doing it whether you care or not.

swallow hard and say that DL will be the largest int'l carrier at LAX by this summer... and they have even more tricks up their sleeve for next year.

How soon we forget...

"Know the competition, respect the competition and be humble.
• all of our competitors are superior to us in some aspect of the business. do not be dismissive of them or we will let down our guard and get beat.
• as C. E. Woolman said, “...no good comes from running down any type of competition. When you sell delta, sell on facts and not comparisons.”

What would Woolman say?
 
 

Aeroflot was the largest airline in the world once.

Pan Am was once the largest international carrier.

Whole lot of good it did them...

Hubris is ugly and dangerous both...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Let's be honest, Kev.

This board isn't really about the competition. It is about interpersonal sniping. It has been and will be - and it involves a whole circle of people on all kinds of subjects - and it isn't just about this board.

And for the record, I have consistently noted what AA does well.

But I'm also not going to sit silently by while AA's fan club gloats about their superior seats but can't seem to accept the fact that DL generates a revenue premium with the world's largest fleet of sub-par seats including in markets that are directly competitive with AA and where they use their "superior" seats.

Perhaps the AA fan club can explain how DL with a 767 managed to push AA out of the BOS-LHR market on its own metal.

A 767 with sub-par seats in Business class? honestly.

and the AA fan club doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that a big chunk of their fleet doesn't have lie flat seats on the plane at all, doesn't have AVOD at every seat on the plane, and doesn't have a new interior which to most customers means far more than whether the airframe is 1.5 or 15 years old.
 

What does that have to do with the seats being sub-par? I too don't understand why they would use that aircraft on that important of a route.

Why not use a 777 or 330 with a nicer cabin.

 
first, there wasn't even a 2nd flight on a consistent basis. the 763 is the lowest trip cost airplane that DL or VS operates. The reason it is being used is because it is a minimal amount of incremental capacity.

Did you also notice that this is one of the VERY few TATL flights that is being added IN THE WINTER?

You don't pull out the massive guns for a new flight in the winter - unless you are just asking to lose money.

And let's not forget that DL just started SEA-LHR which it will be operating this winter for the first time as well.

Tell me what other gateways AA will be operating from the west coast to Europe on its own metal.

And finally, despite what some want to believe, the business elite seat is not the end all and be all.

perhaps more significant is the fact that DL operates the most reliable airline of any of the US int'l carriers, has been rated even in the most recent JD Powers survey higher than AA and UA, and is still a not that distant #3 in the LAX market. This flight is the first DL metal to Europe from LAX since the days of the FRA hub.

It is a rational start at a time of the year when DL wants to get its foot in the door, but not lose it due to stupidity.
 

Aeroflot was the largest airline in the world once.

Pan Am was once the largest international carrier.

Whole lot of good it did them...

The DFW-LAX add is interesting, but seems to be more retaliatory against VX than it is a desire to grow LAX.

except DL isn't the largest. AA is. remember all of those claims about how AA would be the largest airline?

Problem is that AA/US is still the #3 US int'l airline behind UA and DL.

And there are plenty of companies that have managed to remain at the top of the heap because of doing what they do better than anyone else.

Victory in any sphere of life is never guaranteed. DL is growing as aggressively as it is on the west coast - exactly as I said they would do now that their position on the east coast is solid - precisely because DL recognizes there is a market that it needs to serve better and it now has the resources to do so.  
 

And American has plenty of tricks up its sleeves too, especially at LAX, and it will always - remember this word, always - be larger in seats, perform better, have more revenue share and more market share than Delta at LAX in every sense of the word. I know that's difficult reality for you to face.
 
Delta and United can fight for the second fiddle, but Delta still needs to figure out how to steal United's far more loyal LA flyer base.
 
Congrats on Delta being the largest international carrier (love how you fail to mention the metric or by what amount). What happens if Delta succeeds in its attempt to move its money bleeding Haneda-Los Angeles route to Honolulu (it applied and was rejected)? Or if A

A launches Los Angeles-Auckland next winter? Or if UA re-enters Los Angeles-Frankfurt? Or if AA takes over a British Airways frequency? Any of those changes the order.
 
The DFW-LAX add isn't retaliatory. Delta failed to get Dallas Love Field gates, so its simply starting the market from DFW instead.

once again, you missed the fact that DL is the #1 int'l airline in terms of seats and ASMs from LAX by this summer - even before the LHR flight starts.

We'll cross the what-ifs when they happen - but they haven't.

It's probably more likely that the US and Mexico will move forward with Open Skies which will allow a Joint Venture with AeroMexico and DL and which will allow DL (and likely AA too) to start LAX-MEX. With a JV partner on the other end, DL is by far best positioned to win in the market... and likely at the cost of UA and AS.

No, DFW-LAX isn't retaliatory at all and it isn't targeted at Virgin either.

DL is adding it because it is a necessary market that DL needs to serve and DL wants to rebuild its presence from Texas/the southwest to LAX.

It was a given that DL would expand either at DAL or DFW (and DL's DAL flights are still for sale last time I checked) because fares will come down and AA's grip on the market will be broken in the next few months. A plethora of new flights will only make it easier for DL to come in and get a piece of the action.

DL has successfully used the very same strategy repeatedly in NYC in a number of high profile markets which have both multiple legacy and low fare carriers.

if DL's moves at LAX aren't at least in part targeted to AA, then how do you frame DL's expansion in Latin America where based on the most recent traffic reports, DL has now passed being just half the size of AA in the region. DL is now about 55% of the size in Latin America as measured by RPMs. DL is growing where it needs to have a stronger presence and AA has some of the key industry markets which DL wants to serve; UA has the rest. It's both AA and UA.

And one more thing, Kev.

There are people at the GO who absolutely respect the competition but they also stay up nights and work weekends to make sure they win against that competition.

DL's leadership is aggressive and highly competitive.
With all due respect, the environment that existed when Woolman was at the helm is completely different from what exists today.
and finally, when was the last time that you heard any of the AA fan club leaders acknowledge any of AA's weakness? How many hundreds of posts did we have to go thru and how many negative votes did I earn for posting that AA loses hundreds of millions of dollars flying the Pacific?

It didn't make quite as much splash in the most recent quarter, but AA still lost somewhere between 25 and 30% of every dollar in revenue they took in for flying the Pacific in the 4th quarter of 2013.

And while MAH wants to talk about DL's money losing HND route - which is undoubtedly true - DL still managed to post the highest profit margin of the big 3 flying the Pacific... and they did the same thing flying the Atlantic.

so, a little humility on the other side might make a big difference in how things play out on this site.

 

[Airlinelifer]

Kev,
It's funny how some posters, (fanboys) on this site have selective memory when it comes to their respective companies financial health and management stewardship over the years.  At one time or another, their airline was once on top of the world, or spiraling downward towards bankruptcy. 
 
And for the current airline employees, don't let your current success lead to arrogance.
 
 
It's a rollercoaster gentleman, if you don't understand that, you need to get out of your cubicles more often.

 

[700UW]

BTW, congrats on your 3 new LAX-SFO flights on CR9s from the remote terminal. DL will continue to board all LAX-SFO flights as a Shuttle from the main terminal on an hourly basis.

I suspect that AA is trying to throw a few more flights into the market precisely because they see the market is shifting to DL.

And this has what to do with LAX to LHR on DL, or VX?
 
Yet you chastise anyone who goes off topic when it doesnt suit your needs, but you do the very same behavior and call others out, to me thats a hypocrite..

 

[WorldTraveler]

lifer,

company's



yes, I think most people get the cyclicality of the world and the airline industry.

But it is precisely because some companies get it that they have worked very hard to build a sustainable business model. And they did it by recognizing their genuine strengths and weaknesses - with a special focus on the weaknesses.

The internet is populated with plenty of fan boys who can't admit the weaknesses of their respective company to save their lives.

IN contrast, note that I have repeatedly said that DL recognized that it needed to grow in the west coast to Europe and southwest to the west market, a region where DL is number 4 of 4.

I understand very well where each airline's strength and weaknesses lie.

But I also know that you build strength by exercising and developing what is weak, not trying to pretend you are strong where you are not.

 

[eolesen]

How soon we forget...

"Know the competition, respect the competition and be humble.
• all of our competitors are superior to us in some aspect of the business. do not be dismissive of them or we will let down our guard and get beat.
• as C. E. Woolman said, “...no good comes from running down any type of competition. When you sell delta, sell on facts and not comparisons.”

What would Woolman say?

I like how everything but this was responded to in the last missive.

The forums aren't about interpersonal sniping.

Most of us are here to chat. You're here to win.

And, nothing good comes from making everything a competition...

 

[WorldTraveler]

cute... except where was that mindset when you were posting pictures from company IDs?

glad you got "saved" but you might want to take a look in the rearview mirror first.

And, have a little PM conversation with your self-appointed maniac fan leader who decided to turn the thread into a treatise on the worth of a business class seat that in reality exists on a pretty small fraction of AA's fleet.... and despite other products which AA has had to offer, DL has still managed to handled "win" against AA in key direct markets. I'm not sure why you think that DL has any less of a goal in this market.

When you and Kev can grasp the notion that the industry is highly competitive and not about group huddles, then maybe you'll understand why DL is doing such a great job of winning in key industry markets =- and why LAX-LHR is next on the hit parade.

 

[737823]

WT,
As someone who has flown both products multiple times I'll say the current DL 767 product is considerably inferior to the AA product. That said, it's still sufficient for a relatively short flight like east coast to Europe. The seat was introduced in 2009 so we are really talking a six year old product here, of course the AA seat was introduced in early 2013 so it is a bit different. The new 772 seat looks amazing bad is considerably larger and different. The DL 744 seat is much better (and the best of the three variants DL offers IMO). I do agree with Mark that it makes little sense to bring the VS brand to ATL where VS has no customer base and no presence among their affiliates unlike LAX. Yes, I get that it's a JV but I agree it's still odd. I wonder if this will go over like the AF LAX-LHR run in 2008.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

 

The DFW-LAX add is interesting, but seems to be more retaliatory against VX than it is a desire to grow LAX.

How many flights/day will now be in this market?
 
 

The DFW-LAX add isn't retaliatory. Delta failed to get Dallas Love Field gates, so its simply starting the market from DFW instead.

Makes sense...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Josh,
I am not doubting that the AA 773ER business class product is a better hard product than DL's 767 BE product. What I am countering is the single dimension thinking that MAH trots out that says that DL can't succeed in the market based on its product.
First, AA's business class product for right now is far from consistent across its fleet. Perhaps those high frequency travelers who know the service on a particular route and choose on that basis, that might make a difference but with all honesty those are not likely the passengers DL will convert.
Second, the biggest factor is whether a carrier has service in the market at all. DL will gain a certain percent of the market solely by competing in the market using its own metal at all. DL knew when it started the VS JV that it needed to increase its name presence in the top LHR markets. LAX is high at the top of the list. DL will see increased business from LAX solely because its service from LAX to LHR was below its national and LAX local size.
Third, price and corporate contracts are a major factor in the ability to sustain service in highly competitive markets. And before MAH comes in and tells us that AA has all of the corporate contracts at LAX locked up including with the entertainment industry, the mere fact that both DL and UA have higher average fares than AA from LAX says that they either know how to get their hands on high quality corporate revenue or there are other passengers that are more valuable than corporate clients.
Fourth, the economy cabin for any western airline still contributes the majority of the revenue and DL's international economy product is superior to either AA or UA's. While he touts the business class cabin on the 773, he doesn't mention that the 767 is easily the most passenger friendly configuration in the sky or at least tied with the 330 product. Add in AVOD at every seat on DL's entire int'l fleet, free alcohol of all types, and other amenities and DL's product is the highest quality among US carriers and it is also consistent across its fleet.
Fifth, there are a number of other product attributes besides the seat which are part of the purchase decision and DL scores very well on those attributes - which are not just limited to the business class cabin.

and finally, there is the overwhelming evidence that DL has used its 767s on 12 hour flights across the Atlantic and Pacific to Asia and Africa and still managed to get revenue premiums to other carriers that have "superior" cabin products. DL's position in Tokyo obviously gives them an advantage over other carriers but the same should not be true of China - and yet DL has maintained an average fare advantage over its competitors even on routes and in flow markets where DL uses the 767 compared to other carriers' 777s or larger. And the same has held true to LHR in other markets.

Quite simply, MAH and others want to think they have something superior and that is fine to believe it - but it simply is not supported by market-based facts.

as to the brand recognition argument, as a far larger carrier at LAX than any of the Virgins or all of them combined (even for those who don't understand the difference), DL has as much or more brand equity in S. California as VS does. So the argument that DL is disadvantaged because it isn't known in the LAX-LHR market doesn't work. If that is true, then why is AA even talking about trying to expand LAX-Asia where it has virtually no brand recognition against other carriers that are far stronger? AA wants to fly LAX-Asia to build on its brand presence just as DL is doing at LAX.

Further, the whole purpose of partnerships is indeed to expand the presence for both carriers. DL will have an LHR presence on both sides of the airport at LAX. DL will have the opportunity to introduce thousands of passengers per week to Virgin Atlantic via ATL, passengers who have made connections from smaller or medium sized cities and would have never experienced VS because of the lack of codeshare and service connectivity. DL is doing the same thing in Brazil with Gol where DL has put its name on the outside and inside of every Gol aircraft in a market where Gol is the largest domestic carrier. Meanwhile, Gol is receiving publicity on DL aircraft and in DL hubs because of the partnership. The fact that Gol chose to extend its equity partnership to AF/KL says there is value in these type of deep partnerships.


Kev,
DL's service from DAL including to LAX is still for sale. Maybe they will pull it when they actually load the DFW service for public sale but for now DL hasn't given up its attempt to grow at DAL.

As for the amount of new service, Virgin America is essentially transferring its DFW-LAX service to DAL where WN and Virgin combined will have IIRC 7 new mainline flights. DL's 4 E175 flights are less than the capacity that VX flew from DFW.
The net increase in seats from Dallas to LAX is coming from DAL additions. DL is jumping into the market which is no different from BOS or JFK to LAX where all 3 legacies plus 2 of the LCCs will serve the market.

 

[Kev3188]

Great, but I was asking how many total flights will there will now be between DFW-LAX specifically. Any idea?

 

[WorldTraveler]

look at AA's schedule, subtract what VX flies now (I believe it is 3) and add back DL's 4 which are not for sale yet.

if VX flies 3 now but is removing them all and DL is adding 4, it is whatever AA flies plus one.

also, some of VX's DFW-LAX flights operate on 319s.

UA's schedule so far as we know is unchanged. we also don't know yet what AA will do with capacity but DFW-LAX is a high frequency mainline narrowbody market.

They can add more capacity to try to counter DL and WN's growth but they only dilute their own revenues.

In all likelihood, they add little capacity.

 

[eolesen]

Kev, here's the schedule. No need to decipher WT's shell game approach...

October shows 28 nonstops between DFW/DAL and LAX:

AA = 17 (averages hourly between 6am & 10pm, peak hours are on 30 minute separation with a few offpeaks at 90 minutes)
NK = 2 (some days, 1)
UA = 3 (on RJ's no less)
VX = 3
WN = 3 (going to 4 in Nov)

As of just now, the only DL service showing for November 18th on their website are the 5 flights DAL-LAX. There's nothing loaded in Kayak for either DFW or DAL.

Assuming that DL just moves the planned Compass flying over to DFW, it will be positioning a E75 against a narrowbody.

AA's aircraft will have powerports in every row or seat. VX's will have power and USB in every row or seat.

DL, UA, NK, and WN won't.

 

[WorldTraveler]

it's a 3 hour flight. I don't know of any personal electronics that can't make it for 3 hours on their batteries.

The DAL-LAX flights on DL have been for sale for weeks whether Kayak picks them up or not.

It's also worth noting that DL's 4 E175s on DFW-LAX amounts to about the same percent of capacity that they used to start LGA-MIA and LGA-DFW. But that quickly ramped up and DL is now at 20% of the flown share on DFW-LGA with average fares comparable to AA and 33% of LGA-MIA on a similar basis.

DL will also pass UA both in terms of frequencies and seats.

And as you have noted before, there are a certain amount of passengers that will not follow Virgin to DAL because DFW is better located for them.

that traffic comes into play for DL or any of the legacies to acquire/reacquire.

because all of the new flights for multiple carriers are not loaded, it is not possible to calculate share with accuracy but the total DAL/DFW - LAX market is growing about 50% in new capacity. That is bound to affect every carrier that flies it now including AA and UA.

DL undoubtedly has taken the average fares on DFW-LAX and reduced them by 20% or more plus has factored in whether it will get into DAL or not - and if they do, being able to serve LAX from both DAL and DFW will give them an advantage over any other carrier; if they don't, they are no different form AA or UA in that regard.

BTW, DL's decision not to load DFW earlier likely had more to do with the fact that by loading it, it could have hurt its chances with the DOJ. Since that question is answered, it makes no difference whether DL has a presence in DFW-LAX or not.

DL's decision to load DFW-LAX could also be targeted at UA which might be considering to add DAL service on its own or be faced with the likelihood that DL will serve the Dallas-LAX market in one form or the other which will hurt UA and which could help them decide whether it is in their best interest to sublease gates to DL.