Nightwatch
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The fact that Nightwatch believes in the TWU is pure logic, next question dummie?Decision 2004 said:
Representatives Loyalties
- Thread starter Bob Owens
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Nightwatch
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Actually I knew the dummie would be first to respond.Bob Owens said:
Nightwatch
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Owens, dummie, or dummy...all three are the same.Bob Owens said:
Hey Bob, supporting amfa the way you do, why didn't you resign your position? There is no way that you can justify taking an oath to represent the TWU (as a whole entity) and then openly and publicly criticize the union you took an oath to while at the same time preaching and defending amfa openly and publicly. Try as you may, make excuse after excuse, blame the membership, but what you did was wrong.
IF YOU HAD NO INTENTIONS OF SUPPORTING THE TWU AND CHOSE TO SUPPORT AMFA, WHY DIDN'T YOU RESIGN YOUR POSITION AS A TWU REPRESENTATIVE?
IF YOU HAD NO INTENTIONS OF SUPPORTING THE TWU AND CHOSE TO SUPPORT AMFA, WHY DIDN'T YOU RESIGN YOUR POSITION AS A TWU REPRESENTATIVE?
Hey Bob, supporting amfa the way you do, why didn't you resign your position?
Well the TWU didnt leave me much choice. The fact is I was trying to change from within. I met several times, on my own time with leaders from Local 100, 234 and 501. Why should I have resigned? Because I dont agree with your version of unionism where you give the company everything they want?
There is no way that you can justify taking an oath to represent the TWU (as a whole entity) and then openly and publicly criticize the union you took an oath to while at the same time preaching and defending amfa openly and publicly.
Ok, first of all who says an officer cant criticize the TWU? If someone is seeking change from within what are they supposed to do, say "The TWU is perfect as it is but I think we should change it anyway"? If a union is not meeting the needs of the members should we just ignore that, especially when the Top officers are giving themselves raises? As far as "preaching AMFA", show me an example of it that was posted prior to Aug 5, 2003 directed at TWU members.. As far as defending it, does being an officer mean that I should allow lies and inaccuracies go unanswered? Shouldnt the members expect honest truthful information from those they elect? Besides I didnt post that I was writing these posts as the Treasurer of Local 562, but as me, Bob Owens. If you did not bring it up no one, except those who knew me, would have known that I was an officer.
Try as you may, make excuse after excuse, blame the membership, but what you did was wrong.
Blame the membership? No thats your game. Since you feel that lying and misinforming the members is not wrong your version of right and wrong are different than mine.
IF YOU HAD NO INTENTIONS OF SUPPORTING THE TWU AND CHOSE TO SUPPORT AMFA, WHY DIDN'T YOU RESIGN YOUR POSITION AS A TWU REPRESENTATIVE?
As I have told you countless times before I did intend on supporting the members of the TWU. I put countless hours in pushing for change from within. I would have still been working towards that goal if I had not been suspended. As I told you before, the structure is flawed, even the AFL-CIO agreed, the ATDs should have been merged. Sonny Hall and Jim Little will not tolerate change, they are doing very well with things the way they are, however the membership is suffereing. Tell me TWUer exactly who takes priority in your TWU, the International officers who can provide you with a six figure salary and benifits that you would never see as a member, or the members?
Well the TWU didnt leave me much choice. The fact is I was trying to change from within. I met several times, on my own time with leaders from Local 100, 234 and 501. Why should I have resigned? Because I dont agree with your version of unionism where you give the company everything they want?
There is no way that you can justify taking an oath to represent the TWU (as a whole entity) and then openly and publicly criticize the union you took an oath to while at the same time preaching and defending amfa openly and publicly.
Ok, first of all who says an officer cant criticize the TWU? If someone is seeking change from within what are they supposed to do, say "The TWU is perfect as it is but I think we should change it anyway"? If a union is not meeting the needs of the members should we just ignore that, especially when the Top officers are giving themselves raises? As far as "preaching AMFA", show me an example of it that was posted prior to Aug 5, 2003 directed at TWU members.. As far as defending it, does being an officer mean that I should allow lies and inaccuracies go unanswered? Shouldnt the members expect honest truthful information from those they elect? Besides I didnt post that I was writing these posts as the Treasurer of Local 562, but as me, Bob Owens. If you did not bring it up no one, except those who knew me, would have known that I was an officer.
Try as you may, make excuse after excuse, blame the membership, but what you did was wrong.
Blame the membership? No thats your game. Since you feel that lying and misinforming the members is not wrong your version of right and wrong are different than mine.
IF YOU HAD NO INTENTIONS OF SUPPORTING THE TWU AND CHOSE TO SUPPORT AMFA, WHY DIDN'T YOU RESIGN YOUR POSITION AS A TWU REPRESENTATIVE?
As I have told you countless times before I did intend on supporting the members of the TWU. I put countless hours in pushing for change from within. I would have still been working towards that goal if I had not been suspended. As I told you before, the structure is flawed, even the AFL-CIO agreed, the ATDs should have been merged. Sonny Hall and Jim Little will not tolerate change, they are doing very well with things the way they are, however the membership is suffereing. Tell me TWUer exactly who takes priority in your TWU, the International officers who can provide you with a six figure salary and benifits that you would never see as a member, or the members?
Should a local officers loyalty lie with the members that elected them or the International
Members [ 13 ] [92.86%]
International [ 1 ] [7.14%]
Ok, so it looks like over 90 % believe that an elected officer should stand by those that elected him/her.
To the one person who voted that elected officers should be loyal to the International instead of the members would you care to elaborate as to why you feel this way?
Members [ 13 ] [92.86%]
International [ 1 ] [7.14%]
Ok, so it looks like over 90 % believe that an elected officer should stand by those that elected him/her.
To the one person who voted that elected officers should be loyal to the International instead of the members would you care to elaborate as to why you feel this way?
Checking it Out
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Members are the supreme authority, Thats why we elect members to direct the international.
When you Bob and others fail to represent honestly and true to the oath, the system fails. The amfa wannabes have been preaching the darkside for so long they fail to see the damage you have caused. If anything Bob, you should be able to have enough intelligence to see the damage you and the likes are causing in the industry! The track record is their, open your eyes and you will see it!
Anyone advocating going to an organization that outsources from the top is nothing to be proud of. I would not be surprised to see MAG farming bookkeeping work to India soon!
Members are the supreme authority! They elect members to represent their interests with the International, in turn elect members to the international during the convention! If I understand, you do not even trust your own vote! Thats pathetic!!!!
Bob during the last convention, did you have a vote at the local to see who you were to vote for during the convention? Or did the membership elect someone to represent them and make a conscious decision in their best interest? It almost sounds like you are afraid to make a stance for the members best interest!
When you Bob and others fail to represent honestly and true to the oath, the system fails. The amfa wannabes have been preaching the darkside for so long they fail to see the damage you have caused. If anything Bob, you should be able to have enough intelligence to see the damage you and the likes are causing in the industry! The track record is their, open your eyes and you will see it!
Anyone advocating going to an organization that outsources from the top is nothing to be proud of. I would not be surprised to see MAG farming bookkeeping work to India soon!
Members are the supreme authority! They elect members to represent their interests with the International, in turn elect members to the international during the convention! If I understand, you do not even trust your own vote! Thats pathetic!!!!
Bob during the last convention, did you have a vote at the local to see who you were to vote for during the convention? Or did the membership elect someone to represent them and make a conscious decision in their best interest? It almost sounds like you are afraid to make a stance for the members best interest!
The ONLY place a Union Officers' Loyalty should lie is with the Union Members that directly elected them.
Delegates to a "convention" offering International Appointments are hardly objective.
Delegates to a "convention" offering International Appointments which carry salaries paid by the compAAny and the Union are a joke.
Delegates to a "convention" threatening charges against those who do not "carry the political water" of the President of the International could be easily swayed, or removed by a rubber stamp board of flunkies based on evidence that did not include the testimony of the one bringing the charges.
Delegates to a "convention" offering International Appointments are hardly objective.
Delegates to a "convention" offering International Appointments which carry salaries paid by the compAAny and the Union are a joke.
Delegates to a "convention" threatening charges against those who do not "carry the political water" of the President of the International could be easily swayed, or removed by a rubber stamp board of flunkies based on evidence that did not include the testimony of the one bringing the charges.
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Hopeful, Did the members elect you to the convention?
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CIO: are you going to tell me that all these delegates and president's council members aren't wined and dined and courted into the TWU fold? We had an EBOARD member at JFK looking to do the right thing and always expressed displeasure with the TWU. Then Little and Gless took him out for a nice Italian dinner not far from the airport. Guess what?
HE'S IN!
He came back from his dinner like a poster boy for the TWU. "OH THE COMPANY HAS NO MONEY, OH JIM LITTLE SAID WE WERE GOING BANKRUPT, OH WE GOT AWAY CHEAP, OH, LITTLE SAID THEY WERE GONNA LAY OFF BACK TO 1990. BLA BLA BLA!
1990????
AND BE LEFT WITH ABOUT 4000- 5000 MECHS?????????????
CIO:
You should know better and not be so blind sighted into believing the TWU is above stacking the cards in their favor.
By the way, Hall's position is within the whole international. What kept him in power all these years is the ATD, not the bus and train sect.
Now that Hall is gone, Toussant of Local 100 stands to be elected next international president. If that happens, all the ATD boys are out!
HE'S IN!
He came back from his dinner like a poster boy for the TWU. "OH THE COMPANY HAS NO MONEY, OH JIM LITTLE SAID WE WERE GOING BANKRUPT, OH WE GOT AWAY CHEAP, OH, LITTLE SAID THEY WERE GONNA LAY OFF BACK TO 1990. BLA BLA BLA!
1990????
AND BE LEFT WITH ABOUT 4000- 5000 MECHS?????????????
CIO:
You should know better and not be so blind sighted into believing the TWU is above stacking the cards in their favor.
By the way, Hall's position is within the whole international. What kept him in power all these years is the ATD, not the bus and train sect.
Now that Hall is gone, Toussant of Local 100 stands to be elected next international president. If that happens, all the ATD boys are out!
Members are the supreme authority, Thats why we elect members to direct the international.
There you go lying again.
Show me where the membership is the supreme authority in the TWU.
They may be the "supreme authority" at local meetings, one day per month, but thats it. The Constitution grants the Local E-board authority in between. And that E-board is subordinate to the International, not the members.
The fact is that nowhere in the Constitutution does it say that the membership or the local has any authority over the International. In fact the Constitution repreatedly cites the authority of the International. Several court cases have proven this is the case and even the International has testified to that.
When you Bob and others fail to represent honestly and true to the oath, the system fails.
When the membership takes massive benifit and wage cuts the system has failed for them, however with the TWU the members do not really matter now do they, unless of course there is the possibility of a representational election. The International gave themselves raises while threatening us into taking paycuts. The threats from the TWU were even more outrageous than the threats from the company.(The company might liquidate-Jim Little). The TWU had us give "more than adequate" concessions, in other words we gave up more than we should have, so while we gave up more than we should have the TWU didnt even give up their $3.1 million kickback from the company.
And as for the oath, who is the oath, that an elected officer takes, made to? Are the members even mentioned in the oath? The International is. In their verdict from the kangaroo court the TWU International said that if a local officer puts his members interests ahead of the six figure earning International that he is violating his oath.
The amfa wannabes have been preaching the darkside for so long they fail to see the damage you have caused. If anything Bob, you should be able to have enough intelligence to see the damage you and the likes are causing in the industry! The track record is their, open your eyes and you will see it!
The damage I caused to this industry? Please, be specific.
Anyone advocating going to an organization that outsources from the top is nothing to be proud of. I would not be surprised to see MAG farming bookkeeping work to India soon!
Instead what they should do is have incompetant political appointees in all those administrative positions like the TWU? Positions used to buy loyalty to the administration instead of having people accountable to the members?
Members are the supreme authority! They elect members to represent their interests with the International, in turn elect members to the international during the convention!
There you go again. Look at the oath again.
If you look at the oath, and the Internationals interpretation of that oath as described in their verdict it is clear that Local officers, even though they are elected by the members, are in fact bound to the International.
According to the oath, they dont represent the members interests to the International, they represent the Internationals interests to the members. If you look at the Schalk case, he was removed from office because he would not sign and distribute a letter written by the International to the members. The members made no call for such a letter, the International did. So its clear that Chuck was removed for refusing to represent the International interests when he was in fact representing his members interests.
If I understand, you do not even trust your own vote! Thats pathetic!!!!
Once again, you fail to understand.
Bob during the last convention, did you have a vote at the local to see who you were to vote for during the convention?
No
Or did the membership elect someone to represent them and make a conscious decision in their best interest? It almost sounds like you are afraid to make a stance for the members best interest!
Obviously I'm not afraid to take such a stance. Unlike you I come out clearly with who I am and where I stand. How can you say that the Convention process that the TWU has is effective? Your patronizing attitude towards the membership about deterimining what is "in their best interests" is despicable. The fact is that even though the members choose thier local leaders it does not mean that those leaders should enjoy the power to make such determinations and not reveal how or why they voted one way or the other. Especially when those Local leaders have taken an oath to the International and not to them as a condition of going into office. Especially when the International is known to reward obeidient local leaders with six figure earning International spots.
There is no process in place for members to determine how delegates vote. They have no means to prove one way or the other how they vote. In fact there is no means in place for anyone to determine exactly how most votes went and what the actual results were since the determining factor for most of the votes is the opinion of who the chair felt yelled the loudest. In fact at one point during the Convention when some delegates questioned Halls determination Hall stated that He determined the vote and that if they ever got to his position that they could determine the vote.
"The system fails?" No ####! This system, that we call the TWU is designed to fail the members. Its nothing but a business meant to supply cheap labor to companies while eliminating the threat of a more militant, real union, from the AFL-CIO from coming in.
Damage to the Industry? Are you inplying that AMFAs success at raising the prevailing wage has "damaged" the industry? Has screwed up the TWUs plans to lower wages in exchange for more dues payers? I'll agree that the TWU has given "the Industry" tremendous help by lowering labor costs, but the TWU is not supposed to be an advocate for the Industry, they already have the ATA and other organizations for that, the TWU is supposed to represent the interests of those who pay dues. I doubt that the vast majority of dues payers to the TWU think that they should pay dues to an organization that is more concerned about growing and helping the "industry" instead of getting them better pay and benifits.
There you go lying again.
Show me where the membership is the supreme authority in the TWU.
They may be the "supreme authority" at local meetings, one day per month, but thats it. The Constitution grants the Local E-board authority in between. And that E-board is subordinate to the International, not the members.
The fact is that nowhere in the Constitutution does it say that the membership or the local has any authority over the International. In fact the Constitution repreatedly cites the authority of the International. Several court cases have proven this is the case and even the International has testified to that.
When you Bob and others fail to represent honestly and true to the oath, the system fails.
When the membership takes massive benifit and wage cuts the system has failed for them, however with the TWU the members do not really matter now do they, unless of course there is the possibility of a representational election. The International gave themselves raises while threatening us into taking paycuts. The threats from the TWU were even more outrageous than the threats from the company.(The company might liquidate-Jim Little). The TWU had us give "more than adequate" concessions, in other words we gave up more than we should have, so while we gave up more than we should have the TWU didnt even give up their $3.1 million kickback from the company.
And as for the oath, who is the oath, that an elected officer takes, made to? Are the members even mentioned in the oath? The International is. In their verdict from the kangaroo court the TWU International said that if a local officer puts his members interests ahead of the six figure earning International that he is violating his oath.
The amfa wannabes have been preaching the darkside for so long they fail to see the damage you have caused. If anything Bob, you should be able to have enough intelligence to see the damage you and the likes are causing in the industry! The track record is their, open your eyes and you will see it!
The damage I caused to this industry? Please, be specific.
Anyone advocating going to an organization that outsources from the top is nothing to be proud of. I would not be surprised to see MAG farming bookkeeping work to India soon!
Instead what they should do is have incompetant political appointees in all those administrative positions like the TWU? Positions used to buy loyalty to the administration instead of having people accountable to the members?
Members are the supreme authority! They elect members to represent their interests with the International, in turn elect members to the international during the convention!
There you go again. Look at the oath again.
If you look at the oath, and the Internationals interpretation of that oath as described in their verdict it is clear that Local officers, even though they are elected by the members, are in fact bound to the International.
According to the oath, they dont represent the members interests to the International, they represent the Internationals interests to the members. If you look at the Schalk case, he was removed from office because he would not sign and distribute a letter written by the International to the members. The members made no call for such a letter, the International did. So its clear that Chuck was removed for refusing to represent the International interests when he was in fact representing his members interests.
If I understand, you do not even trust your own vote! Thats pathetic!!!!
Once again, you fail to understand.
Bob during the last convention, did you have a vote at the local to see who you were to vote for during the convention?
No
Or did the membership elect someone to represent them and make a conscious decision in their best interest? It almost sounds like you are afraid to make a stance for the members best interest!
Obviously I'm not afraid to take such a stance. Unlike you I come out clearly with who I am and where I stand. How can you say that the Convention process that the TWU has is effective? Your patronizing attitude towards the membership about deterimining what is "in their best interests" is despicable. The fact is that even though the members choose thier local leaders it does not mean that those leaders should enjoy the power to make such determinations and not reveal how or why they voted one way or the other. Especially when those Local leaders have taken an oath to the International and not to them as a condition of going into office. Especially when the International is known to reward obeidient local leaders with six figure earning International spots.
There is no process in place for members to determine how delegates vote. They have no means to prove one way or the other how they vote. In fact there is no means in place for anyone to determine exactly how most votes went and what the actual results were since the determining factor for most of the votes is the opinion of who the chair felt yelled the loudest. In fact at one point during the Convention when some delegates questioned Halls determination Hall stated that He determined the vote and that if they ever got to his position that they could determine the vote.
"The system fails?" No ####! This system, that we call the TWU is designed to fail the members. Its nothing but a business meant to supply cheap labor to companies while eliminating the threat of a more militant, real union, from the AFL-CIO from coming in.
Damage to the Industry? Are you inplying that AMFAs success at raising the prevailing wage has "damaged" the industry? Has screwed up the TWUs plans to lower wages in exchange for more dues payers? I'll agree that the TWU has given "the Industry" tremendous help by lowering labor costs, but the TWU is not supposed to be an advocate for the Industry, they already have the ATA and other organizations for that, the TWU is supposed to represent the interests of those who pay dues. I doubt that the vast majority of dues payers to the TWU think that they should pay dues to an organization that is more concerned about growing and helping the "industry" instead of getting them better pay and benifits.
