Pilots want a Raise

[pilot]

700, are you saying that if the Dispatchers did not take a cut U would have failed?

Are you saying that if the ground school instructors had not taken a cut U would have failed?

You are misunderstanding the point. Had either (or both) of those groups not taken cuts we would still be here.

Had the pilots not taken a cut, we'd be gone. Yes, we all "saved" the airline. But the dollars from the pilot group were far and away the major factor. That's not arrogance. Far from it. In fact, I'm ashamed we took the cuts. But facts are facts.

pilot

 

[traderjake]

Tell that to the NWA pilots. Their pension is underfunded and frozen right now. That's a fact. Try to research what you're saying before you say it. Your dislike (jealousy) of the pilot group is apparent.

pilot

You are correct, I'm wrong. An underfunded pension can be frozen.

This isn't NWA. It's not United or Delta. We could have disappeared and nobody would have missed us. RSA was willing to invest $250 million. TPG $200 million. How much more do you think would coughed up to make the frozen plan whole even if they had five years to do it.

I am a pilot and what I dislike is guys like you who think that losing our job and pension is better than losing our pension. The alot of guys within a few years of retirement didn't care if the rest of us lost our jobs. They made a couple million dollars working here as captains the last 20 years. All they cared about is there own bank account.

 

[traderjake]

According to my reading on the subject, you can. Yes, the underfunding has to be remedied, but there's a longer timeframe to do it than is required for a non-frozen plan - wasn't that what the company was seeking before the termination (or at least said they wanted...)
Jim

Jim you are correct, I'm wrong. An underfunded pension can be frozen. A company has 3 to 5 years to make up the shortfall depending on the level of underfunding. The POR did not include money to do that.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

http://www.jetblue.com/havefun/media/media...st%20Like%20Dad

 

[N109UW]

Dollarwise this pilot group did single-handidly save the airline. Without the concessions of this pilot group we'd be gone. You cannot say that about any other group. Single-handidly.
pilot

Hey idiot, have you ever thought that maybe you were the most diporportionate paid employees on the property. Sure, you had the parity +1 shoved at you and it came back to haunt the company. When I got here in the eighties, there were alot of arrogant jackasses up front, but I quickly put a stop to that crap. I came from a military environment where pilots didn't think they owned the military, because they realized that we all had same common goal. They didn't feel that they were any better than anyone else. Without some of our other employees, your butt would stay on the ground. Again, you are just a spoke in the freakin wheel. Over $300,000 to fly an aircraft, get real. And yes, some of you were paid that. I flew with alot of guys who didn't want other employee groups to know how much our pilots were getting paid. We had the second highest paid pilots in the US at one time.

 

[brown]

When you become the owner of the board then you can tell me what to do.

More Pilot Greed

Does he live on this board or what?????????

 

[PITbull]

According to my reading on the subject, you can. Yes, the underfunding has to be remedied, but there's a longer timeframe to do it than is required for a non-frozen plan - wasn't that what the company was seeking before the termination (or at least said they wanted...)

Meanwhile, of course, the improving market would have solved a significant portion of that underfunding. According to a PBGC analysis of underfunded DB plans, 25% of the underfunding has been made up by those 2 factors in the last 3 years.

Jim

And, again, you are absolutely correct.

Unfortunately, many of the pilots listened to only those ALPA MEC members that were listening to ALPA hired guns (attorneys) and the ALPA MEC Officers. Its too bad that the pilots didn't pressure their leadership to freeze the pensions and let the judge rule to terminate a pension. The RC 4 tried their damndest and couldn't convince the majority who allowed their lack of knowledge and reliance on BK attorneys to rue the day on the pension issue.

As you know, AFA would never agree to terminate our own pensions and only permitted a freeze in the ratified agreement, contrary to our inept legal advisors and neg. committee. We knew that once the pilots terminated their own pensions,it would set the stage for terminations of all pension plans. U management would never agree to just freeze the other two group's pension plans and be satisfied with that cost savings. We also knew the judge would be convinced to terminate as well. Hence,Jan. 10, the judge ruled to terminate IAM and AFA as well as abrogate IAM contract, which allowed the company to furlough and eliminate 1000 utility workers.

As far as Judges go...it appears we had the worst.

 

[fatherabraham]

I am a pilot and what I dislike is guys like you who think that losing our job and pension is better than losing our pension. The alot of guys within a few years of retirement didn't care if the rest of us lost our jobs. They made a couple million dollars working here as captains the last 20 years. All they cared about is there own bank account.
[/quote]

Trader,

Would it be safe to assume you are one of the 57% type folks? I agree with the concept of your last sentence but would be embarrassed to lumped in with that group. You and your skill set demand more with the proper negotiating strategy. JMO

FA

 

[fatherabraham]

To add to my point I am posting an insert i saw yesterday in carreerbuilder.com. Compare these numbers ( as rounded,averaged,and dated as they are ) to a furloughed MDA jet captain making around $55 Grand under votes like these.

Highest-Paying Jobs in the US
CareerBuilder.com

Do what you love and the money will follow is great in theory, but the truth of the matter is, certain jobs and fields simply pay more. The Bureau of Labor Statistics National Compensation Survey showed, for example, that white-collar earnings, which averaged $21.85 per hour, were the highest among occupational groups. Blue-collar pay averaged $15.03 per hour, while the hourly pay of service occupations averaged just $10.40.

The jobs that pay the most require at least a four-year college degree. According to the Employment Policy Foundation, the nation's 12 top-paying jobs -- and the mean annual income reported in 2003 for each -- were:

Top Paying Jobs Overall


Physicians and surgeons: $147,000

Aircraft pilots: $133,500

Chief executives: $116,000

Electrical and electronic engineers: $112,000

Lawyers and judges: $99,800

Dentists: $90,000

Pharmacists: $85,500

Management analysts: $84,700

Computer and information system managers: $83,000

Financial analysts, managers and advisors: $84,000

Marketing and sales managers: $80,000

Education administrators: $80,000

 

[pilot]

Abe:

I assure you 109 is a 57% guy. He'll fly for whatever scrap is thrown his way. Name calling and apologizing for our profession as being overpaid and mortified by the fact we were the highest paid in the industry. The consumate MO of the GAG.

He looks at it as a job and not a profession and when someone tells it like it is that person becomes an "idiot".

Now we are the lowest paid in the industry. But you don't hear him complaining. Hey, at least he has a "job". Someday he may figure out why pilots are paid more than anyone else. But I won't hold my breath. He doesn't get it. Likely never will.

pilot

 

[N109UW]

You seem so narrow mind in your thought pattern. Have you ever thought of yourself as "just another employee"? I doubt it, but that is what you are. Sorry to bust your bubble. You work for the same company that I do, yet you seem to think that you are somehow better than than the other folks here. Maybe I feel thats it's just not about me and before I tell everyone that I want a raise, that I want to see more progress( and I don't mean by asking for more givebacks). Sure, we all gave alot back to get were we are today, but at the first sign of a profit, I'm not theatening,"give me a raise or else". That is that you are sounding like. Everyone is going to want a raise and we all definately deserve it.Maybe instead of you getting your raise, we could hire back some of the utility people who really gave back, with their jobs. Sometimes I feel as though I am typing with Charles Lindbergh or one of the Wright brothers on here. It's amazing.

 

[goya]

Yeah, we saved the company and you want us to stand in line. Without our pension going you'd be working at McDonalds.

Wake up flyboy FLEET saved this sorry a** company again. We gave up the most and now that their's a PROFIT we want some back. If i'm working at McDonald's and you walk in you will wait in line you schmuck. h34r:

 

[BoeingBoy]

If you substitute "improvements in the contract" for "get a raise" (not everything equals money on payday), the problem is that only one of two things can happen - somebody gets improvements or somebody makes more concessions.

If the best of both contracts can be negotiated, whichever side had the worst provision in any given area sees improvements.

If the worst of both result from negotiations, whichever side had the best provision in any given area makes concessions.

If the company gets what they profess to want - cost neutral - each side will probably gain in some places and lose in others, but it's unlikely that the gains and loses will be equally split. One side or the other will lose more than it gains - a concession for that side.

So saying that there should be no improvements is the same as saying that someone will face concessions. It may not be you, and that may be all that matters to you, but someone will.

Jim

 

[N109UW]

If you substitute "improvements in the contract" for "get a raise" (not everything equals money on payday), the problem is that only one of two things can happen - somebody gets improvements or somebody makes more concessions.

If the best of both contracts can be negotiated, whichever side had the worst provision in any given area sees improvements.

If the worst of both result from negotiations, whichever side had the best provision in any given area makes concessions.

If the company gets what they profess to want - cost neutral - each side will probably gain in some places and lose in others, but it's unlikely that the gains and loses will be equally split. One side or the other will lose more than it gains - a concession for that side.

So saying that there should be no improvements is the same as saying that someone will face concessions. It may not be you, and that may be all that matters to you, but someone will.

Jim

Exactly Jim, I agree with you on this point. Others don't get it. We all live in the same fihbowl here. It needs to be less about me, me ,me and more about us. Close the hand and the company sees a fist. a united front, not just some people saying "give me mine, now". Some employees gave up alot, but others gave up their jobs. Put it in perspective.

 

[soc-hpjester]

Correct me but hp never had a pension for anybody. Thats what we call 401K. And now that we are becoming a LCC will all pensions be gone ?