Pilots not allowed to have enough fuel?

[US Oringinal]

I think your over estimating the knowledge of the general public...trust me the public reaction has not been good for US -- this is as stated above a PR Blunder - which could end up costing all of us our jobs.

Ethically and as an employee this was the wrong was to pursue the issue.

And the PR will continue to worsen on August 1st when US becomes the first major airline to charge its customers for ALL beverages!! Unless you have cash, you get NOTHING to drink on US Airways!!

I can see Kate Hanni and Flyers Rights now: US is holding passengers "hostage" on aircraft and refusing HYDRATION unless they have cash!!!!

...can't wait for the Southwest commercial.....

(just opinions)

 

[ReadyNow]

"Despite your mighty Commercial/CFI qualification you speak as an amateur with the knowledge of an amateur. Your trusty E6B and Kneeboard is no substitute for tens of thousands of hours and hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of oceanic crossings. Your opinion and judgement amongst the professionals carries as much weight as would John Travolta's.

The Captain is the final authority as to the safe operation of any flight. That is where the buck stops."

Why is it always the same 8 pilots? What about the 1000's of other pilots who don't seem to have a problem planning their fuel requirements? Maybe Capts who can't plan fuel for complicated overseas flights should stick to flying between LGA and PHL

 

[Piedmont1984]

Why not bring them in for a meeting? Why not administer a non-jeopardy training regimen such as a classroom day or two, or distance learning?

Instead, someone in Tempe decides to subject the pilots in question to an expensive (three axis, full motion), possibly certificate and career threatening simulator session (read check ride, company and FAA observing).

I view this as intimidation, plain and simple, designed NOT to bring 8 wayward pilots into line, IF that is true, but to manage the expectations of the pilot group as a whole.

 

[flybynite]

How many pilots do we have that are flying the Transatlantic routes on a regular basis?

 

[ussnark]

As a member of the flying public - with a commercial certificate and CFI - I see this as an example of 8 pilots who need to learn how to better plan their flights - rather than take the attitude - I always ask for an extra 3K pounds cuz then I don't have to think before I start engines...

I see this as pilots who don't want to manage their fuel and flight plan. The FAA reserves are quite adequate and it is strange that only a handful of pilots seem to have a problem....

As a self-professed pilot, you should understand that the FAA reserves are a minimum and assume everything is "normal".

The pilots were adding what amounts to about 2% over projected fuel burn, less than half the time, during the winter months. I am surprised the pilots were not adding more.

 

[EastUS]

I view this as intimidation, plain and simple, designed NOT to bring 8 wayward pilots into line, IF that is true, but to manage the expectations of the pilot group as a whole.

I'd submit that no other explanation's even remotely reasonable. Taking a few "hostages" for starters is standard-issue protocol for exactly that particular purpose, and merely serves to place the camel's nose inside the tent. Targeting a handful of the most senior and experienced people is but a 'first shot", which, if left unchallenged..means that EVERYONE'S entirely 'fair game" for whatever comes next....and ever after....Anyone who "misses that", may be fairly presumed to miss much in general.

TBoneJ4J: "A pilot union finally acted like a pilot union, not an association, and called the company to account in a public venue, when all other avenues failed." Amen. It's unfortunate that any such action was even necessary.

 

[Dorf]

We have lost revenue and customers because of the PR moment .......we can't afford to lose either....not one dollar and not one customer -- some of us are trying to retain a job.

How many customers/revenue/jobs will be lost if one of U's aircraft doesn't make it across the pond and land SAFELY because the flight crew didn't take that extra 2o minutes of fuel because they didn't want to be scrutinized by all the "desk fliers"!? Use your head, this is simply a ploy by management to get everyone in line by bullying some senior guys ("if we mess with them, the junior guys will fall in line ...")....if this fuel conservation "training" is so important, shouldn't management send EVERY PILOT through this training!?

Dorf

 

[BoeingBoy]

Why is it always the same 8 pilots?

How do you know that it's "always the same 8 pilots"? Oh - that's right - because the company says so and that's all you need to know.

What about the 1000's of other pilots who don't seem to have a problem planning their fuel requirements?

Again, how do you know that none of the "1000's of other pilots" don't seem to have a problem. Even the company hasn't gone so far as to say that, but anything to support the company line - even if you have to make it up.

Maybe Capts who can't plan fuel for complicated overseas flights should stick to flying between LGA and PHL

Again, what's the basis for your saying that these Capt's "can't plan fuel for complicated overseas flights". The company again? Did you ever think that these Capt's were doing exactly that - planning fuel for complicated overseas flights. With your vast experience with complicated overseas flights, perhaps you'd care to explain how that process works. Or is merely a matter of swallowing whatever the company feeds you....

Jim

 

[US Oringinal]

WELL SAID, JIM.

It still amazes me, even after all their screw-ups, Tempe still has a devoted, kool-aid drinking flock of "followers". This corporate intimidation is happening in all departments on all levels so much so that many of us have to say "these are just my opinions" in order to be kept from being hauled into the office for posting here.....

Hopefully now, the flying public(or at least the CNN watching public) will start to see what is REALLY going on at this company.......

Kudos for USAPA for stepping up to the plate on an important matter and putting some action behind their words--now if we could just get the rest of the unions to follow suit.......

 

[ReadyNow]

Again, what's the basis for your saying that these Capt's "can't plan fuel for complicated overseas flights". The company again? Did you ever think that these Capt's were doing exactly that - planning fuel for complicated overseas flights. With your vast experience with complicated overseas flights, perhaps you'd care to explain how that process works. Or is merely a matter of swallowing whatever the company feeds you....

Not if the same 8 pilots always add extra fuel for every flight - that seems to be the case. I am sure that airlines track fuel loads by pilot - so the outliers are easy to spot.....It's a fair question:

Capt - why is your personal fuel cost per hour higher than every other pilot who flys the same equip on the same route? It doesn't sound like these pilots were picked at random.

My bet is the really complicated process works like this.

Dispatcher gives pilot fuel estimate.

Pilot adds 3K lbs to number rather than do any complicated math he didn't do since flight school.

 

[Phoenix]

I'd submit that no other explanation's even remotely reasonable. Taking a few "hostages" for starters is standard-issue protocol for exactly that particular purpose, and merely serves to place the camel's nose inside the tent. Targeting a handful of the most senior and experienced people is but a 'first shot", which, if left unchallenged..means that EVERYONE'S entirely 'fair game" for whatever comes next....and ever after....Anyone who "misses that", may be fairly presumed to miss much in general.

TBoneJ4J: "A pilot union finally acted like a pilot union, not an association, and called the company to account in a public venue, when all other avenues failed." Amen. It's unfortunate that any such action was even necessary.

Thank you. Targeting senior international pilots for alleged wasteful fuel practices is the most implausible scenario for several additional reasons.

1. The nature of international flights are such that they are most likely to require fuel in excess of the absolute minimum. (in other words this category of flying is the most difficult to prove wasteful fuel practices.)
2. If fuel practices at USAir led to wasteful international flights, then it would stand to reason that there is a larger number of domestic flights that are wasteful. However, the company has not made that claim.
3. If there are only eight (8) pilots that are carrying (not actually burning) 15 minutes of extra fuel then the extra cost is an indiscernible blip on the RADAR screen.
4. The cost of ferrying a little extra fuel probably cost less than the money they proposed to spend on accomplishing the fuel training. So in effect it would be spending a dollar to save a dime. ( Perhaps that was the genesis of their plan. )

On the other hand, as you say, if mngmnt is making an example of the most senior pilots then they could reasonably expect that everyone junior would start flying min fuel (and just make it work) to all destinations everyday. If every flight were flown that way then there would be fuel savings greater than the cost of training just eight (8) pilots. Viewed from this perspective then it was a pretty ingenious plan (for a group of bean counters :blink

 

[hp_fa]

Pilot adds 3K lbs to number rather than do any complicated math he didn't do since flight school.

Computers are very, very good at doing math. What they lack is intuition and experience. They don't understand the gut feeling that we, as humans, get when experience tells us that we are not acting correctly under a set of circumstances.

 

[EastUS]

My bet is the really complicated process works like this.

Dispatcher gives pilot fuel estimate.

Pilot adds 3K lbs to number rather than do any complicated math he didn't do since flight school.

In truth sir...none actually consider evaluating flight length, weather conditions, the very reasonable thought of frequently not being actually cleared for your intended cruise altitude on the oceanic tracks, differing winds aloft from forecast, destination airport conditions/etc as being "complicated math"...but the individuals involved certainly didn't halt their aviation learning experience with, Wow! a CFI...and do view things differently than you appear to. Ummm..."flight school"...whatever you say sir.......

 

[Planemx]

pilots here ask for a fuel bump all the time - no big deal. Narrow body domestic....and the 321 pigs need every drop they can get cuz they suck outloud. But I would bet that these guys are not on that list.....Are the lucky 8 flying to congested airports that are notorious for long hold times or bad weather? What time frame are we talking - how long have their fuel bumps been tracked? I don't know....8 senior pilots that are bitter? I don't know, but this sure doesn't help our airlines position. Looks like USAPA is climbing the ladder in the 'not so smart' dept - and the company doesn't like the competition.

So rants the ratchet....

 

[ReadyNow]

In truth sir...none actually consider evaluating flight length, weather conditions, the very reasonable thought of frequently not being actually cleared for your intended cruise altitude on the oceanic tracks, differing winds aloft from forecast, destination airport conditions/etc as being "complicated math"...but the individuals involved certainly didn't halt their aviation learning experience with, Wow! a CFI...and do view things differently than you appear to. Ummm..."flight school"...whatever you say sir.......

You describe what they should do....My guess is that some - lets say - 8 out of many - don't do that.....But the union leaps to their defense anyway......anything to bash management as you both collectively "spin in"