Paycuts At Ual! Article.

[C54Capt]

No one is critisizing anyone for choosing a career in aviation, just critisizing you for being the type person who is destroying the career, especially when you have either a total lack of "SA" or worse yet "Class" that you'd come here with your "bar" drivel.

[post="204776"][/post]​

Bus,

Explain why it is OK for you to come on here and constantly critisize me and your former peers by making personal attacks about lack of "SA" and "Class". In other posts you alledge many other negative qualities. You obviously don't know me, otherwise you would not make those kind of statements especially on a public forum. You have not addressed any of my points with an intelligent response, instead you choose to make personal attacks. Its very unbecoming of a professional pilot if that is what you claim to be.

The "bar" discussion was not meant to be inflamatory, rather a statement of fact that all airline employees are or will be faced with making concessions, and it happens to be UAL's turn now. Will the bar be lowered? Its a legitimate question. What is up with your horrid negative attitude?

 

[UAL_TECH]

C54Capt,

It might be better explained as to why ‘you’ come here.
FYI, the ‘bar’ for pilots wages are being lowered at ‘every’ carrier, not just those here at the ‘Lazy U’!

Maybe if you could have convinced USALPA, DALPA, NWAPLA, and AAALPA to make a stand, you might have a (although somewhat shaky) leg to stand on. Given the ‘capitulary mood’ of ALPA in general, I can see (but not agree with) the UALALPA capitulation position that they are in which is caused (mostly) by the rest of the industry.

JMHO,
B) UT

 

[C54Capt]

UAL TECH,

That is correct. We will all be adversely affected in some way by more concessions or abrogated contracts. Maybe a little support by labor collectively would be better than personal assaults by industry outsiders like the Busdrivr. Good luck to us all.

 

[UAL_TECH]

UAL TECH,

That is correct. We will all be adversely affected in some way by more concessions or abrogated contracts. Maybe a little support by labor collectively would be better than personal assaults by industry outsiders like the Busdrivr. Good luck to us all.

[post="226831"][/post]​

C54Capt,

Although I think his politics suck, I have not found posts from Busdrivr that refelcts him as being an 'outsider'.
Can you provide supporting data?

Thanks in advance,

B) UT

 

[mrfish3726]

Busdriver says, "Did FRNT get a government subsidized loan garentee?" Yes F9 got an ATSB loan. UniTED had the SAME playing field that ALL airlines had to be approved for the loan gaurantees, and you know that. It was no government conspiracy to keep UniTED from getting a loan. The reason UniTED didn't get a loan was that they couldn't prove to the ATSB board that they had a sound plan to pay back that loan. Don't forget that F9 has already payed the ATSB back in full also.

Don't blame UniTED's failure on the government not intervening. I think the government knows that it's time for this industry to be realigned, consolidated, downsized, and the ones that can't make it, will just go away like EA, TWA, Pan AM ECT. If you think folks like John McCain really give two sH!T$ about UniTED'S situation you better think again. Most in Congress think that you legacy pilots are way OVER COMPENSATED for the hours that you fly anyway. They are the last ones you should expect ANY sumpathy from.

If C54Capt has his retirement ducks in a row, good for him. I know that I have over the 30+ years I have been in this business. We have alot of pilots that fly reserve and part time here, kind of just a hobby you know. Nice HOBBY HUH? Bet you wish you were set up enough to do that???

UniTED is coming up on their 3rd year in BK, and they still have no plan for exit financing other than to get YOU the employees to finance them. I agree with some on this thread that it won't be the last time they ask for help. 2005 should be a VERY interesting year! I think we will see some capacity leave the industry before the summer. And if oil goes back up, POOOORA CITOOOOOO!

 

[C54Capt]

C54Capt,

Although I think his politics suck, I have not found posts from Busdrivr that refelcts him as being an 'outsider'.
Can you provide supporting data?

Thanks in advance,

B) UT

[post="226835"][/post]​

UAL TECH,

From what I have deduced, Busdrvr was a pilot at UAL and was subsequently furloughed. From his posts he claims that he would not work at F9, WN, B6, HP, or UAL at their current pay-scale. He has evidently moved on to a more lucrative industry, therefore, I now consider him an outsider.

 

[casual rat]

Once capacity leaves, albeit for a moment, planes start to get ordered, and 'Market Share' becomes the order of the day. If UA goes under, those gates on the 'B' Concourse will be filled by someone else--quickly. Perhaps a carrier that has its House in order. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[C54Capt]

casual rat,

I agree with you 100%. I have always been a proponent of the successful reorganization and survival of UAL as I believe they offer the best chance of a profitable coexistence at DIA once they emerge from BK.

 

[luvn737s]

Once the training center is outsourced the next logical step will be pay-for-initial and pay-for -upgrade. All of this will be couched as alternative to further pay cuts.

 

[kcabpilot]

What we should all be doing collectively right now is barking like rabid dogs. We need to tell UAL management that abrogation of the CBA contracts and dissolution of the pensions means the end - period.

They need to be convinced that they must back down from those threats

then we can talk....

 

[Busdrvr]

C54, I don't know you, I can only judge you by your actions. Having had an economics class or two (or 20) in my life, I understand the laws of supply and demand and the implications of various actions with respect to labor's pricing power in the industry. You depict yourself as someone who is well off financially, yet you had to run out and lower the bar by providing an LPC with additional cheap labor. If that were not bad enough in and of itself, you then have the unmitigated gall to come on here and suggest that UAL is lowering the bar, and that UAL should be dropping unprofitable routes (while FRNT continues it's streak of unprofitable quarters). Of course the implication is that FRNT will then be able to expand into those routes with more lower paid, no self respect, employees like Fish who think less employees at lower pay is a "good" thing. In case you weren't paying attention, UAL, DAL, AMR, and NWA were all doing swell until some greedy scabs decided they'd prey on the unemployable and start todays newesty generation of LPC's. It's just sad that so called "officers" and "professionals" would be greedy or dumb enough to take the bait.

 

[casual rat]

I wonder if UA, during a time of unmitigating profits, would reopen its CBA's and hand out pay raises and 'bennies'? OK, just kidding! This all sets a bad precedent as everyone jumps on board. I think the thing that's killing us is FedEx taking away mail contracts. In this cyclical industry, cargo used to "patch things up" until demand/fares increased (or fuel prices stablized). F9ers would love less competition, so upon looking for, then striking a sensitive nerve, they try to make it me vs. you, even though we work for the same company. Management does the same thing, with different intentions. The only way UA's going to get better is, despite the idiots in charge, you have to make your personal environment better. Do you really think Tilton cares about you and yours? Here's a clue: he doesn't. If UA fails, he'll have another 7 figure job--that's his place in life. I don't like it, it's not fair, but there's nothing that I can do about it. I'm not slashing my wrists just to prove a point. Just do the best you can, count to ten when you get upset, and try your best to take revenue away from the competition. Management, looking for revenues, is like OJ looking for a killer on the golf course...It falls on you. It's hard, I know, but F9 would love a UA strike. You can't kick a dog when its already down though, there will be better days for that. In the meantime....I'd love to see Fish starve, not to death, but uncomfortably! I would!

 

[mrfish3726]

BUS,

I must remind you AGAIN, that I am componsated more than my counterparts at UniTED. In our maintenance department and my knowledge of the Teamster contract the only difference in what UniTED has in their pay scale vurses the F9 folks is that it takes them 10 years to make what a UniTED mechanic makes. Most here have already achieved that 10 year top out of 30+ an hour. Granted our other groups do make less than their UniTED counterparts, but our maintenance department is on par with UniTED. In both pay and PROFESSIONALISM! And as for self respect BUS, I regained that as SOON as I LEFT UAL HELL. UniTED SUX'S I don't have to tell YOU THAT AGAIN!!!!!

And speaking for the other employee groups at F9, we have what it takes to make F9 a sucess and will continue to do so . Even as our competition fails their customers, shareholders, employees, and the city of Denver!

 

[WorldTraveler]

Although I have no financial interest in FedEx, it is important to clarify that the US government and not FedEx or the combination carriers such as United are driving the shfit in mail revenue from combination carriers to cargo carriers. Sadly, US Mail has been labeled as a vulnerable point in the security system even though it is far better screened and handled than is most of the bulk cargo that is carried by airlines. It is the US government that can be thanked for taking away a big chunk of mail revenue from the combination carriers. Since LCCs typically are typically not interested in messing with cargo or mail to the degree the legacy carriers are, the pain is being felt in the sector of the industry that is most in need of help.

It should be perfectly obvious that the US government is moving more and more to the belief that consolidation is necessary in order to help the legacy industry sort out its problems. US and DL’s respective closures of PIT and DFW as hubs signal that the industry is beginning to recognize the excess of hubs and shift capacity, a process that can only work so far as long as there are six network carriers, each of which needs to maintain some critical network mass in order to remain viable. Given that domestic codeshare partners are not allowed to obtain antitrust immunity in order to coordinate schedules, the only way US airlines will remove excess capacity is if there is a financial assurance that one’s partner will work with and not against you to improve overall revenue.

There is a growing recognition that the US airlines are so badly damaged that they can’t control their own plight and that it really might be in the US’ best interest in allowing foreign investors either to gain a less-than-majority financial interest in some of the most shaky financial US airlines or to allow foreign investors to provide the funding so the stronger US airlines can buy the weaker ones. Although a direct investment of, say Lufthansa in United, will not decrease overall US capacity but an investment by BA in AA could allow the latter to buy US’ assets and then ship the Airbus aircraft to Britain while allowing AA to strengthen its east coast presence which would certainly benefit BA. (hypothetical example).

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...D=2004412050326

If the industry consolidates, the downward pressure on US airline workers will continue. Even without consolidation, airline balance sheets are so badly damaged that it will take years to repay the debt which has been taken on in order to keep airlines afloat. Any hopes of seeing salaries restored in this decade are probably hallucinogenic.

 

[mrfish3726]

HEY RAT BOY, the FISH will NEVER STARVE. I could comfortably retire right now at the age of 47, but I Love what I am doing to make F9 a sucess! I'll probably only work for another 7 years then go fishing indefinately!!!!! Bet you wish you could do that, but with no pension you'll be slaving at UAL HELL till what 75????