I think it's sad too that we're having to face further cuts. I think it's sad that when 2010 rolls around and it's time to renegotiate UAL's pilot contract, I'm probably going to have JetBlue's A320 pay rates thrown in my face again and the old A320 rates that we all enjoyed are gone forever. I think it's sad that when it's time to renegotiate in 2010 if we still have 100 seat 737's, I'm going to have JetBlue's EMB 190 rates dropped on the table, because you guys felt that you had to fly your 100 seat jet at the same pay rate as Mid Atlantics 76 seat jet (yes, you're comparing their EMB170 to your EMB190). I think it's sad that 8 and 24 might go away, and God knows what else you guys (JetBlue and the other LCC's) come up with between now and then. You're right it is sad. The worst part of it all is that I don't think the average Joe at JetBlue or AirTran or whoever either understands or cares.
Paycuts At Ual! Article.
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mrfish3726
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ualdriver,
You say that folks at the LCC'S don't care, how sad that is. Most of the folks at the LCC'S are the ones that have ALREADY faced the cuts and furloughs at the Legacy Carriers. These are folks that would rather work for less and have their sanity. Versus wanting more and working for an employer who doesn't give two S$#T'S about their employees and their livelyhood.
You can't blame folks that are just trying to keep the money rolling in for the bills and mortgage. Money to put food on the table and take care of the ones they truly love and care about. You will see that and realize that MONEY isn't EVERYTHING after the end of UniTED!
You say that folks at the LCC'S don't care, how sad that is. Most of the folks at the LCC'S are the ones that have ALREADY faced the cuts and furloughs at the Legacy Carriers. These are folks that would rather work for less and have their sanity. Versus wanting more and working for an employer who doesn't give two S$#T'S about their employees and their livelyhood.
You can't blame folks that are just trying to keep the money rolling in for the bills and mortgage. Money to put food on the table and take care of the ones they truly love and care about. You will see that and realize that MONEY isn't EVERYTHING after the end of UniTED!
I understand the anxiety that UAL employees have and the financial hardships that many are going through as a result of pay cuts, but I still find it stunning that JBLU employees have their employment held against them.
People have the freedom to choose where they want to work, and for how much. Many airline employees are in a difficult situation these days, but to say someone is "ruining it" for someone else involves a great deal of selfishness.
People have the freedom to choose where they want to work, and for how much. Many airline employees are in a difficult situation these days, but to say someone is "ruining it" for someone else involves a great deal of selfishness.
I'll second that. Yes its frustrating for those who stay at UA but we all know who has to share much of the blame. UA Management. I don't mean Tilton either. I mean many of the true evil souls who permeate the company who sit in Director, VP, Sr VP and so on positions. People who truly would shoot you in the back if they had the chance to cover their own ass. Until the true Evil is found and destroyed UA will never recover. Remember the ever popular "KEY Employee" retention plan? Who are these people who permeate the company who get pay bonuses only because if they leave UA will allegedly collapse. I say if they and others should be rooted out. We can perhaps outsource those positions since it seems that UA likes to outsource everyone elses job.
OK rant off.
That felt good to say that.
B)
OK rant off.
That felt good to say that.
B)
Don't misunderstand me. I agree with all of the above posts, and unfortunately, I too may find myself working at an LCC in the future if things don't work out at UAL. I don't hold any LCC employees' employment against them. It's a free country.
But if I were a JetBlue pilot, I wouldn't be coming onto a UAL forum and lamenting the "downward" spiral of pilot wages/work rules/lifestyle when I knew that I was a good part of the reason the spiral begin in the first place (initial A320 pay/work rules) and part of the reason why the downward spiral will continue (fighting for the elimation of 8 and 24/initiating yet another ridiculous pay scale for a 100 seat jet when they could certainly afford to pay more, and God knows what else they'll come up with) and do nothing about it. JetBlue is now an established airline that doesn't need to undercut, for example, the going rate of 100 seat jets by 40%+ in order to be competitive. And they certainly don't need to "modify" FAR's that protect countless pilots across the US industry from management and scheduling abuse. To say that the legacy carriers were already in trouble when JetBlue was a new airline and therefore imply the above is "fair game" is ridiculous. That's my point. Other than that, I'm sure JetBlue is a good company and they're obviously providing the customer what they want-> cheap tickets. Even though I don't agree with the opinions so far of the JetBlue pilots I've spoke with/written with, they are always welcome on my jumpseat, as is any LCC pilot.
But if I were a JetBlue pilot, I wouldn't be coming onto a UAL forum and lamenting the "downward" spiral of pilot wages/work rules/lifestyle when I knew that I was a good part of the reason the spiral begin in the first place (initial A320 pay/work rules) and part of the reason why the downward spiral will continue (fighting for the elimation of 8 and 24/initiating yet another ridiculous pay scale for a 100 seat jet when they could certainly afford to pay more, and God knows what else they'll come up with) and do nothing about it. JetBlue is now an established airline that doesn't need to undercut, for example, the going rate of 100 seat jets by 40%+ in order to be competitive. And they certainly don't need to "modify" FAR's that protect countless pilots across the US industry from management and scheduling abuse. To say that the legacy carriers were already in trouble when JetBlue was a new airline and therefore imply the above is "fair game" is ridiculous. That's my point. Other than that, I'm sure JetBlue is a good company and they're obviously providing the customer what they want-> cheap tickets. Even though I don't agree with the opinions so far of the JetBlue pilots I've spoke with/written with, they are always welcome on my jumpseat, as is any LCC pilot.
ualdriver,
You entered this thread telling Dizel8 you had no beef with him being a jetblue pilot but then in the same thread you regurgitated a worn out and erroneous argument that LCC carriers (and the pilots who choose to work for them) are the material cause for the industry's problems. I know your life is no picnic right now but if you really believe what you've posted then you truly deserve what's happening to you and your ilk.
This profession has been living on borrowed time since 1978 in terms of the legacy benefits and perks which were obtained under decades of regulation, i.e. a closed and protected industry which prevented true free-market competition and growth.
BTW, the best thing that happened to you and probably 90% of today's airlines pilots is the tremedous market growth that deregulation introduced, which created quantum increases in passenger traffic and the collective purchase of thousands of new aircraft by all airlines. This in turn gave you a realistic chance of finding employment in the first place. If this industry was still regulated you very likely would be doing something else flying airliners for a living, but I digress.
Like almost all other things in life deregulation has been a two-edged sword for those who labor in the business. It has allowed the airline industry to reach unprecedented levels of growth (and jobs), but it has also unleashed the competitive risks and rewards for those who choose to participate. In such an environment any and all excesses, both high and low, have been and will be subject to market forces that may cause failure and eventual financial extinction if allowed to run its course. How well do you think United had performed in this regard?
You criticize jetblue pilots for accepting sub-standard pay rates and benefits, yet now find yourself doing the same thing. I guess a truly principled and intellectually honest airline pilot would turn his back on the profession and walk away rather than allow himself to sully the profession by such selfish motivations, all for the cause of putting food on the table and paying a mortgage.
If you expect LCC pilots to do what's right for best interests of the profession then you better be ready to do the same, even it means totally subordinating your own personal and financial interests in the process. To do anything else (like continuing to accept reduced pay and benefits) only demonstrates your true hypocrisy over the issue. If you really believe that each individual airline pilot in this profession should be willing to sacrifice his own interests for the greater good of the profession then why are you still working for United and thus enabling a mortally wounded carrier that is being artifically supported by archaic bankruptcy law provisions, to continue to wreck havoc on the larger industry in ways far more devastating that anything jetBlue could do with its proposed emb-190 payrates, or 8 in 24 hour rule exemptions. If you are not willing to walk the walk then you need to recuse yourself from the debate.
You entered this thread telling Dizel8 you had no beef with him being a jetblue pilot but then in the same thread you regurgitated a worn out and erroneous argument that LCC carriers (and the pilots who choose to work for them) are the material cause for the industry's problems. I know your life is no picnic right now but if you really believe what you've posted then you truly deserve what's happening to you and your ilk.
This profession has been living on borrowed time since 1978 in terms of the legacy benefits and perks which were obtained under decades of regulation, i.e. a closed and protected industry which prevented true free-market competition and growth.
BTW, the best thing that happened to you and probably 90% of today's airlines pilots is the tremedous market growth that deregulation introduced, which created quantum increases in passenger traffic and the collective purchase of thousands of new aircraft by all airlines. This in turn gave you a realistic chance of finding employment in the first place. If this industry was still regulated you very likely would be doing something else flying airliners for a living, but I digress.
Like almost all other things in life deregulation has been a two-edged sword for those who labor in the business. It has allowed the airline industry to reach unprecedented levels of growth (and jobs), but it has also unleashed the competitive risks and rewards for those who choose to participate. In such an environment any and all excesses, both high and low, have been and will be subject to market forces that may cause failure and eventual financial extinction if allowed to run its course. How well do you think United had performed in this regard?
You criticize jetblue pilots for accepting sub-standard pay rates and benefits, yet now find yourself doing the same thing. I guess a truly principled and intellectually honest airline pilot would turn his back on the profession and walk away rather than allow himself to sully the profession by such selfish motivations, all for the cause of putting food on the table and paying a mortgage.
If you expect LCC pilots to do what's right for best interests of the profession then you better be ready to do the same, even it means totally subordinating your own personal and financial interests in the process. To do anything else (like continuing to accept reduced pay and benefits) only demonstrates your true hypocrisy over the issue. If you really believe that each individual airline pilot in this profession should be willing to sacrifice his own interests for the greater good of the profession then why are you still working for United and thus enabling a mortally wounded carrier that is being artifically supported by archaic bankruptcy law provisions, to continue to wreck havoc on the larger industry in ways far more devastating that anything jetBlue could do with its proposed emb-190 payrates, or 8 in 24 hour rule exemptions. If you are not willing to walk the walk then you need to recuse yourself from the debate.
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Must work for AirTran.
spacewaitress
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Oh brother...wrong again. Yet another one making faulty assumptions about those of us still in the business. But if it makes you feel better, fine.Daedalus said:
Daedalus-
STFU? What, are we out in the grade school playground or something? Are you going to beat me up because I posted something you didn't agree with? Maybe we can meet out by the monkey bars after school to settle this? Give me a break.
Uh no Daedalus. Reread my posts. I stated that it's a free country and we're all capitalists and anyone can work for any wage they want.
As far as the first part of your post, you're entitled to your opinion as to what effect deregulation has had on the airline industry. It is impossible for either you or I to determine what would have happened had the industry been deregulated or not. Since I'm an American and a capitalist, I'm glad the industry was deregulated. Who cares?
Daedalus said "You criticize jetblue pilots for accepting sub-standard pay rates and benefits, yet now find yourself doing the same thing. I guess a truly principled and intellectually honest airline pilot would turn his back on the profession and walk away rather than allow himself to be sullied by such selfish motivations, all for the cause of putting food on the table and paying a mortgage."
You need to reread my posts again. Start with the post right above your last one where I said I agree with the posters above me who basically said you can't blame a guy for putting food on the table for taking a lower paying job becuase that's all that's out there.
Daedalus wrote: "If you expect LCC pilots to do what's right for best interests of the profession then you better be ready to do the same, even it means totally subordinating your own personal and financial interests in the process. To do anything else (like continuing to accept reduced pay and benefits) only demonstrates your true hypocrisy over the issue.............."
I've been in this business for many years and have already done the above. Believe me, it is hard to do when for the past 10 years I've been at UAL we are constantly undercut. I can't even count how many airlines used bankruptcy law in their favor against us. Now it's our turn.
Daedalus wrote: "If you really believe that each individual airline pilot in this profession should be willing to sacrifice his own interests for greater good of the profession then why are you still working for United and thus enabling a mortally wounded carrier that is being artifically supported by archaic bankruptcy law provisions, to continue to wreck havoc on the larger industry in ways far more devastating that anything jetBlue could do with its proposed emb-190 payrates, or 8 in 24 hour rule exemptions. If you are not willing to walk the walk then you need to just STFU."
Let me get this straight. You think that UAL's 2 year bankruptcy process will be more devastating to the industry than JetBlue trying to eliminate a provision in the FAR's that protects countless pilots across the industry from management abuse? An FAR that has been written in blood (literally), that took sacrifice from those before me, could be elimated from the books forever so JetBlue can make an extra buck? You think UAL's bankruptcy is more devastating? You really need to rethink that position. Talk to a Mesa pilot about how he feels about the potential elimination of that law. Talk to an Eagle pilot. Talk to an ASA pilot. Talk to the guys flying punishing schedules who will be forced to compete when 8 and 24 goes away. Why don't you read about the American Airlines Little Rock accident. How about the more recent one in Kirksville, MO? How many more accidents will we have like that when 8 and 24 goes away? You obviously didn't hear the collective groan heard across the industry when JetBlue started pushing for that little change.
As far as the EMB190 rates go-> here's an airline that will be successful in the future, is making money even in the worst times the industry has ever had (maybe not this quarter but overall) and they come out with rates for a 100 seat jet that will set back narrowbody rates across the industry into the stone age. And the thing is, they don't need to be doing that. They're not a new comer anymore. They can afford to pay their guys a rate a lot closer to industry standard. But things are groovy at JetBlue, everyone's upgrading, no one cares. Fine. They can do what they want, it's a free country.
But the whole reason these series of posts started was because a JetBlue pilot came on the UAL forum to agree with another guy who is complaining about how we're supposedly "lowering the bar" for the rest of the industry. That's what is ridiculous. The bar was already there-he should know that. We're just forced to come down to it now. It's called the LCC limbo and it's coming to a party in your town soon!
STFU? What, are we out in the grade school playground or something? Are you going to beat me up because I posted something you didn't agree with? Maybe we can meet out by the monkey bars after school to settle this? Give me a break.
Uh no Daedalus. Reread my posts. I stated that it's a free country and we're all capitalists and anyone can work for any wage they want.
As far as the first part of your post, you're entitled to your opinion as to what effect deregulation has had on the airline industry. It is impossible for either you or I to determine what would have happened had the industry been deregulated or not. Since I'm an American and a capitalist, I'm glad the industry was deregulated. Who cares?
Daedalus said "You criticize jetblue pilots for accepting sub-standard pay rates and benefits, yet now find yourself doing the same thing. I guess a truly principled and intellectually honest airline pilot would turn his back on the profession and walk away rather than allow himself to be sullied by such selfish motivations, all for the cause of putting food on the table and paying a mortgage."
You need to reread my posts again. Start with the post right above your last one where I said I agree with the posters above me who basically said you can't blame a guy for putting food on the table for taking a lower paying job becuase that's all that's out there.
Daedalus wrote: "If you expect LCC pilots to do what's right for best interests of the profession then you better be ready to do the same, even it means totally subordinating your own personal and financial interests in the process. To do anything else (like continuing to accept reduced pay and benefits) only demonstrates your true hypocrisy over the issue.............."
I've been in this business for many years and have already done the above. Believe me, it is hard to do when for the past 10 years I've been at UAL we are constantly undercut. I can't even count how many airlines used bankruptcy law in their favor against us. Now it's our turn.
Daedalus wrote: "If you really believe that each individual airline pilot in this profession should be willing to sacrifice his own interests for greater good of the profession then why are you still working for United and thus enabling a mortally wounded carrier that is being artifically supported by archaic bankruptcy law provisions, to continue to wreck havoc on the larger industry in ways far more devastating that anything jetBlue could do with its proposed emb-190 payrates, or 8 in 24 hour rule exemptions. If you are not willing to walk the walk then you need to just STFU."
Let me get this straight. You think that UAL's 2 year bankruptcy process will be more devastating to the industry than JetBlue trying to eliminate a provision in the FAR's that protects countless pilots across the industry from management abuse? An FAR that has been written in blood (literally), that took sacrifice from those before me, could be elimated from the books forever so JetBlue can make an extra buck? You think UAL's bankruptcy is more devastating? You really need to rethink that position. Talk to a Mesa pilot about how he feels about the potential elimination of that law. Talk to an Eagle pilot. Talk to an ASA pilot. Talk to the guys flying punishing schedules who will be forced to compete when 8 and 24 goes away. Why don't you read about the American Airlines Little Rock accident. How about the more recent one in Kirksville, MO? How many more accidents will we have like that when 8 and 24 goes away? You obviously didn't hear the collective groan heard across the industry when JetBlue started pushing for that little change.
As far as the EMB190 rates go-> here's an airline that will be successful in the future, is making money even in the worst times the industry has ever had (maybe not this quarter but overall) and they come out with rates for a 100 seat jet that will set back narrowbody rates across the industry into the stone age. And the thing is, they don't need to be doing that. They're not a new comer anymore. They can afford to pay their guys a rate a lot closer to industry standard. But things are groovy at JetBlue, everyone's upgrading, no one cares. Fine. They can do what they want, it's a free country.
But the whole reason these series of posts started was because a JetBlue pilot came on the UAL forum to agree with another guy who is complaining about how we're supposedly "lowering the bar" for the rest of the industry. That's what is ridiculous. The bar was already there-he should know that. We're just forced to come down to it now. It's called the LCC limbo and it's coming to a party in your town soon!
Ualdriver,
You have shown your true colors with the "Now it's our turn" comment. Everything else you say is just a bunch of background noise as you try and find some moral high-ground to stand on and shake your finger of condemnation at others. Here's a clue for you, JetBlue is not the cause of your problems but rather a symptom of your problems.
If you can't admit to yourself that United is causing great damage to the industry and your beloved "profession" then how can anyone with critcal-thinking abilities accept your other assertions?
You're all for upholding the "profession" until your pink hide gets put on the figurative chopping block. I can appreciate why you feel that way, but don't expect or preach a higher standard for everyone else. While your other kool-aid drinking buddies might like what you're saying, everyone else with an objective opinion on this subject laughs at the shallowness for your position. I don't have a dog in this fight anymore and have moved on to better things. However, I used to feel like you until the axe fell on me and I had no other choice but to pick up the pieces and move on to a life outside of the airlines.
Looking back at the rest of you with your ill-conceived notions and hypocritical positions makes me just shake my head and wonder when you will collectively wake up and realize you are all responsible for what is happening in one way or another. If you're not willing to walk away on your principles of what's right and wrong for the sake of the greater good of the "profession" then don't criticize anyone else for not doing the same.
You have shown your true colors with the "Now it's our turn" comment. Everything else you say is just a bunch of background noise as you try and find some moral high-ground to stand on and shake your finger of condemnation at others. Here's a clue for you, JetBlue is not the cause of your problems but rather a symptom of your problems.
If you can't admit to yourself that United is causing great damage to the industry and your beloved "profession" then how can anyone with critcal-thinking abilities accept your other assertions?
You're all for upholding the "profession" until your pink hide gets put on the figurative chopping block. I can appreciate why you feel that way, but don't expect or preach a higher standard for everyone else. While your other kool-aid drinking buddies might like what you're saying, everyone else with an objective opinion on this subject laughs at the shallowness for your position. I don't have a dog in this fight anymore and have moved on to better things. However, I used to feel like you until the axe fell on me and I had no other choice but to pick up the pieces and move on to a life outside of the airlines.
Looking back at the rest of you with your ill-conceived notions and hypocritical positions makes me just shake my head and wonder when you will collectively wake up and realize you are all responsible for what is happening in one way or another. If you're not willing to walk away on your principles of what's right and wrong for the sake of the greater good of the "profession" then don't criticize anyone else for not doing the same.
ualdriver said:
ualdriver,
I've been enjoying some days off over the holidays, hence my late reply. First of all, I was not trying to incite you regarding the UAL concession proposal. I was merely stating that it would "hurt" and that all other carriers would have to follow suit, which would negate the net effect.
Your view that LCCs already lowered the bar was true at one time but is largely an outdated line of thinking. The LCCs once drew pilots that would work for Commuter wages because they were biding time until hired by a major. Those days are long gone. I currently make about $6 more per flight hour than my counterparts at UAL flying the A-320 series jets and my work-rules are much better. The pension was really the kicker that made a career at UAL the preferred choice. Now management wants to take the pension from you and cut your pay by another 18% even though you are already being paid less than most "LCCs". That my friend is setting the bar and it is a choice you will have to make.
Daedalus has some very good points and I believe you would agree with him if you could block your emotions on the issue. This is not my first rodeo pal. I've been where you are and I know its no fun. It will probably get a lot worse before it gets better. Just be careful in where you assign blame for your situation.
If either of you can show me where I state that "JetBlue is the reason for UAL's failure" then I will eat crow. However, a BIG part of the reason the legacies are where they are today are because of the LCC's. For example, 75% of UAL's route structure overlaps a LCC carrier. It was around 15% in the early 90's. LCC's charge lower fares. They charge lower fares mostly because they have cheap(er) labor. Labor is an airline's largest expense (normally) so JetBlue a few years ago paid their A320 guys way below market rates, and bingo, you can undercut every legacy on the planet. That has driven revenue and yields down, particularly on the transcon routes where UAL and JetBlue overlap, and compounded by every other LCC doing that somewhere else in UAL's network and other world events, here we are today.
C54Capt said: "I currently make about $6 more per flight hour than my counterparts at UAL flying the A-320 series jets and my work-rules are much better. The pension was really the kicker that made a career at UAL the preferred choice. Now management wants to take the pension from you and cut your pay by another 18% even though you are already being paid less than most "LCCs". That my friend is setting the bar and it is a choice you will have to make"
And that's where guys like you and Deadalus are wrong in your logic. Dead wrong. NOW you're paid better than a UAL A320 guy. NOW you have better work rules. A few years ago, it was the other way around BY FAR. JetBlue, Airtran, etc, made a "new" bar that now we (the legacies) are forced to match so we can match your fares. YOU GUYS SET THE BAR LOW FIRST AND NOW THE DOWNWARD SPIRAL WILL BEGIN. Everyone is going to have to match these new pay rates eventually (even Southwest I believe). For many years we were able to keep the bar high. Now, powerless in bankruptcy, management simply throws the JetBlue or America West or whoever's contract on the table and says, beat it or we can't get any money from the banks.
And you know what, that's fine. That's competition. But don't come onto UAL's forum and tell ME how we're "lowering the bar" when the bar was set by the likes of the JetBlue's of the world. Further, you're setting the bar EVEN LOWER with the EMB190 pay rates and your pursuit of trying to nullify FAR's to make an extra buck or two.
So C54Capt, when UAL is FORCED to match (or undercut) our 100 seat 737 rates with YOUR RIDICUOUS EMB190 rates years down the road, am I going to hear you on this forum again complaining how the bar is being set lower by UAL yet again? Then are you going to tell me that it wasn't JetBlue's fault that 100 seat rates are in the toilet, UAL had "other" problems that caused it to have to undercut JetBlue EMB190 rates?
How about if you guys are successful with 8/24? When there's a thread titled "UAL MANAGEMENT renegotiates work rules with pilot group" are you going to be on here lamenting about how UAL is "lowering the "work rule" bar again?" Will that not be JetBlue's fault either?
Are you wondering when the downward spiral is going to end where airlines enter and exit bankruptcy constantly undercutting each other pay rates to gain a foothold? I don't know when the downward spiral is going to end either, but I know where it started, pal. This ain't my first rodeo either.
C54Capt said: "I currently make about $6 more per flight hour than my counterparts at UAL flying the A-320 series jets and my work-rules are much better. The pension was really the kicker that made a career at UAL the preferred choice. Now management wants to take the pension from you and cut your pay by another 18% even though you are already being paid less than most "LCCs". That my friend is setting the bar and it is a choice you will have to make"
And that's where guys like you and Deadalus are wrong in your logic. Dead wrong. NOW you're paid better than a UAL A320 guy. NOW you have better work rules. A few years ago, it was the other way around BY FAR. JetBlue, Airtran, etc, made a "new" bar that now we (the legacies) are forced to match so we can match your fares. YOU GUYS SET THE BAR LOW FIRST AND NOW THE DOWNWARD SPIRAL WILL BEGIN. Everyone is going to have to match these new pay rates eventually (even Southwest I believe). For many years we were able to keep the bar high. Now, powerless in bankruptcy, management simply throws the JetBlue or America West or whoever's contract on the table and says, beat it or we can't get any money from the banks.
And you know what, that's fine. That's competition. But don't come onto UAL's forum and tell ME how we're "lowering the bar" when the bar was set by the likes of the JetBlue's of the world. Further, you're setting the bar EVEN LOWER with the EMB190 pay rates and your pursuit of trying to nullify FAR's to make an extra buck or two.
So C54Capt, when UAL is FORCED to match (or undercut) our 100 seat 737 rates with YOUR RIDICUOUS EMB190 rates years down the road, am I going to hear you on this forum again complaining how the bar is being set lower by UAL yet again? Then are you going to tell me that it wasn't JetBlue's fault that 100 seat rates are in the toilet, UAL had "other" problems that caused it to have to undercut JetBlue EMB190 rates?
How about if you guys are successful with 8/24? When there's a thread titled "UAL MANAGEMENT renegotiates work rules with pilot group" are you going to be on here lamenting about how UAL is "lowering the "work rule" bar again?" Will that not be JetBlue's fault either?
Are you wondering when the downward spiral is going to end where airlines enter and exit bankruptcy constantly undercutting each other pay rates to gain a foothold? I don't know when the downward spiral is going to end either, but I know where it started, pal. This ain't my first rodeo either.
ualdriver,
I don't work for jetBlue. UAL A-320 guys still make more than B6 pilots.
I'm with you in opposition to the 8/24 rule fiasco and the 100 seater pay rate proposed by jetBlue. The consequeces of these proposals will be devestating and irreversable if approved or accepted.
I know you guys (UAL) have already had to go backwards in pay and benefits for a whole slew of reasons, one being LCC competition. My only point in this discussion is that the UAL vs LCC labor rates have equaled out (narrow-body fleet)and additional concessions by UAL will initiate a trend lower rather than higher across the industry. I personally would rather see the trend go higher.
I don't work for jetBlue. UAL A-320 guys still make more than B6 pilots.
I'm with you in opposition to the 8/24 rule fiasco and the 100 seater pay rate proposed by jetBlue. The consequeces of these proposals will be devestating and irreversable if approved or accepted.
I know you guys (UAL) have already had to go backwards in pay and benefits for a whole slew of reasons, one being LCC competition. My only point in this discussion is that the UAL vs LCC labor rates have equaled out (narrow-body fleet)and additional concessions by UAL will initiate a trend lower rather than higher across the industry. I personally would rather see the trend go higher.
"My only point in this discussion is that the UAL vs LCC labor rates have equaled out (narrow-body fleet)and additional concessions by UAL will initiate a trend lower rather than higher across the industry. I personally would rather see the trend go higher."
I agree for the most part. However, even if UAL employees "put up a stand" and shut the place down in an attempt to stop this trend, it won't work. It will just delay the trend a little longer and we will all (temporarily unemployed UAL employees) be working for the same wages and work rules at another carrier when we just voted to shut down our own carrier for the same working conditions (wages and work rules). The power has shifted unfortunately.
I agree for the most part. However, even if UAL employees "put up a stand" and shut the place down in an attempt to stop this trend, it won't work. It will just delay the trend a little longer and we will all (temporarily unemployed UAL employees) be working for the same wages and work rules at another carrier when we just voted to shut down our own carrier for the same working conditions (wages and work rules). The power has shifted unfortunately.
