Oil At $55 Per Barrel

[MCI transplant]

MCI transplant,Mar 11 2005, 07:02 PM]
<_< Hello Bob!---- No I didn't want to go there, but since you have put your own spin on this, I guess I'll have to !!!! First a few stats on Ozark. Ozark first flew in 1950. It flew for 36years, and was bought by (TWA) Carl Icahn on Oct.26th, 1986, for $224Mill. adding 50 aircraft to TWA's fleet. This also eliminated competition out of STL, which was TWA's only hub, and Ozarks main base.------ Now, your statement that "Ozark was dovetailed because of the AMFA langage if they weren't no deal!" Well, I guess you could put it that way, but actually, most all Union contrcts in the industry at that time, as now, had language in there scope protecting their seniority! TWA included!
Yes, and the IAM, facing default from the company to the tune of several hundred million dollars waived your contracts successorship clause.

The point I'm making here with the statement "The Ozark people were dovetailed" is in fact true! Unlike the Paranord AMT's at American Airlines, the people at TWA were not out to screw over the people from Ozark! No attempt was even considered to try and stapel them to the bottom of our seniority list! Back then, Seniority was, and should be today, considered one of the main bases of Unionisum! Any Union, including the AMFA! And I do take exception to the statement that "Ozark people did not have that many years there!" I've worked with too many of them thoughout the years, that are now retired, to tell you quite a few of them had "many' years with Ozark!
Well we have a few ex-ozark guys here and the word is that things were not quite as cozy as you make it seem. Mind you those guys are from STL where the impact of the merger would have been much greater than at MCI.

Remember they were flying for 36 years before TWA came into the picture! Was the transition painless? Of course not! We had our issues also! As to what transpired with the language in our scope, a gun was put to our heads by Carty/ TWU, to have us pull that language from our scope, the same language in the Ozark scope, and later on by our own TWU,or Carty/TWU would "requist" the bankrupcy judge to void our total contract under section 1135a!!!!!
Rather then lose it all, we reluctantly complied!

So in the end what part of your contract did you end up keeping ?

Knowing that if we did, American Airlines would treat us "fairly", as Carty had promised!!!!

Fair is a relative word. Carty had no right to promise you something that was not his to give. Would it have been "fair" for the EAL guys to be displaced to make room for guys who submit every time the company "holds a gun to their heads"? When management did that to the EAL guys they held a gun to the companies head. Your merger with Ozark predated EAL and the guys from Ozark took pay and benifit cuts when they went to TWA, you MCI guys got the biggest increase you ever saw when you went to AA, only to vote it,and a whole lot more away just like you did at TWA, once again because of that "gun to your heads". So Ichan had a gun, Carty had a gun, they all got guns, and all they have to do is make a threat and we know how you will go.

:down: As to the presitent set by the AMT's of a.a., and the other Unions of a.a., as to how the TWA people were treated, It is a dangerous one! One that could came back and bit us all in the tail feathers because it strikes right to the core of Unionisum!! Let me point out one other thing here! The percentage of Ozark AMT's to TWA, was roughly the same as that of TWA, to a.a.!!!! Signed: "Just anotherone of a.a.'s redheaded stepchildren!!"

Well if you havent figured it out yet the unionism that you believed in has long since been replaced by business unionism. When Management people like Jim Litltle rise to the top ranks of the union by ushering massive concessions you know that the union is shot.

You want portable seniority there is only one way to get it, get us all in one union-fill out an AMFA card then make the motion, I will support you 100%.

[post="254844"][/post]​

<_< Bob----- Well, I guess we all have our opinons!!! I have mine! You have yours!!! But I've got to hand it to you! Your quit a spin doctor! But it seems we have too many of them here already! And yes, I'm trying to be polite !!!!

 

[aafsc]

Talk about spin, come on MCI. You keep saying that the TWAers "gave" the Ozark people their seniority at TWA. You make it sound like the TWAers just had a big smile on their face with open arms and said "were so happy to give you your Ozark seniority here at TWA.". But the truth is, according to Mike Serrapica, 4th VP of the TWU 530 in MCI, that the IAM dictated that the Ozark people be dovetailed, and MANY MEMBERS DISAGREED. It seems that you and the other TWA people are upset that the Ozark people got their full seniority everywhere at TWA as to where the TWA people only got full seniority in their bases at AA. That's it isn't it? And yes, if you would have been able to keep your seniority protective provisions, you would have had full seniority everywhere. Just like the Ozark people. But you should not sweat it. With 35 years seniority, I would say you are safe in MCI.

 

[MCI transplant]

Talk about spin, come on MCI. You keep saying that the TWAers "gave" the Ozark people their seniority at TWA. You make it sound like the TWAers just had a big smile on their face with open arms and said "were so happy to give you your Ozark seniority here at TWA.". But the truth is, according to Mike Serrapica, 4th VP of the TWU 530 in MCI, that the IAM dictated that the Ozark people be dovetailed, and MANY MEMBERS DISAGREED. It seems that you and the other TWA people are upset that the Ozark people got their full seniority everywhere at TWA as to where the TWA people only got full seniority in their bases at AA. That's it isn't it? And yes, if you would have been able to keep your seniority protective provisions, you would have had full seniority everywhere. Just like the Ozark people. But you should not sweat it. With 35 years seniority, I would say you are safe in MCI.

[post="254907"][/post]​

<_< What I'm saying a.a. is : The seniorty thing with Ozark was a "non-issue"!!!! Period!!!!You'ed love it if I'de said different, that would justify what was done to us! But it just didn't happen that way!!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< a.a.----- This may be a little off subject, or maybe not! But I have a question for you! In your opinon, why has a.a. kept MCI open???? ( Even at a highly reduced head count!)

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< Oh Bob! ----Just a little trivia for you! Do you know who is bankrolling the exTWA F/A's law suit against the APFA/AA? Non other than the I.A.M.!!!!! Now why would they want to do that?????

 

[Hopeful]

Today, 10:48 AM Post #49



Rank: Veteran Member
Group: Founders Club
Posts: 677
Joined: 4-June 03
Member No.: 2,345



a.a.----- This may be a little off subject, or maybe not! But I have a question for you! In your opinon, why has a.a. kept MCI open???? ( Even at a highly reduced head count!)


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The answer might be best answered bu city and state officials as to why MCIE is kept open.
For many a years, TULE has been kept running and improvements on going with the "help" of city and state officials.

 

[MCI transplant]

Today, 10:48 AM Post #49 
Rank: Veteran Member
Group: Founders Club
Posts: 677
Joined: 4-June 03
Member No.: 2,345
  a.a.----- This may be a little off subject, or maybe not! But I have a question for you! In your opinon, why has a.a. kept MCI open???? ( Even at a highly reduced head count!) 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The answer might be best answered bu city and state officials as to why MCIE is kept open.
For many a years, TULE has been kept running and improvements on going with the "help" of city and state officials.

[post="254935"][/post]​

<_< Yea Hopeless! I hear what your saying! But there's got to be more to it then that? Maybe not!!!

 

[aafsc]

<_< What I'm saying a.a. is : The seniorty thing with Ozark was a "non-issue"!!!! Period!!!!You'ed love it if I'de said different, that would justify what was done to us! But it just didn't happen that way!!!!

[post="254914"][/post]​

When I read the article by Mike Serrapica in the "MCIExpress", I got the impression that the TWA people did not want to give the Ozark people their seniority so it did appear to be an issue. Also, talking to some ex-TWA people, they told me there was some bitterness about the Ozark situation. And on another website, the ex-TWA pilots and ex-Ozark pilots are still arguing over that integration until this very day. I don't know what you mean by "what was done to us. " You wanted full seniority everywhere and we wanted full staple. The arbitrator ruled so it is basically a stalemate between the two groups. You are in the same situation as you were before the transaction. You had full seniority at STL and MCI before and you have the same thing after. The arbitrator put a fence between the two groups.
You say that we need to drop this issue and move on and I agree. But then when you are responding to a post on a totally unrelated topic you put a line in there referencing the seniority issue. Like in that post about AMFA and TUL you slip in the line saying that we dovetailed Ozark but not lets not go there and then Bob Owens says in his post lets go there.
I was talking to a person who is ex-TWA and he is very happy the way things turned out. He plans to retire shortly and says that his AA pension (after 4 years of service) will be almost the same as his TWA pension (after 30+years or service). He is happy that he will be getting retiree health care from AA as well as passes because he plans to travel a lot. So when you retire, you will pretty much get the same thing. So be thankful for what you do have and what you will get because remember a lot of people from Braniff, Eastern, and Pan Am receive none of this.

 

[aafsc]

<_< a.a.----- This may be a little off subject, or maybe not! But I have a question for you! In your opinon, why has a.a. kept MCI open???? ( Even at a highly reduced head count!)

[post="254918"][/post]​

In my opinion, there a number of possible reasons that AA kept the base open.

1. In case there are failures (which I believe is a real possibility this year) then AA can quickly ramp up the extra capacity at MCI to take advantage of the situation.

2. Bring in and increase third party work. Third party work has been coming in at all bases (Capital Cargo pylon modification in MCI, the UA/Air India 777 at AFW, and components at TUL). There is talk (rumors I guess) that more third party 777s will go to AFW for work. It has been written that MCI can possibly do more work for Capital Cargo in the future after the pylons are done. In TUL they want to increase revenue by bringing in third party work and lowering costs by increasing efficiency by $500 million.
It seems that they want to make the three bases profit centers by going after third party work. This could mean a spinoff or sale in the future, just like sabre. The proceeds then can be used to pay down AA's enourmous debt.

3. They kept it open because of the subsidies received from the state of Missouri and the city of Kansas City.

4. They kept it open to keep the TWU happy and the dues flowing and for Public relations purposes. It would not look good to shut down an entire base; especially in a state where you have a hub (STL).

It could be one, all, none, or a combination of my opinions listed above. They did do it for a reason because they have cut a LOT of overhead elsewhere in the system and I just can't imagine them signing a 25 year lease for the heck of it when the AA's finances are so tight.

 

[MCI transplant]

When I read the article by Mike Serrapica in the "MCIExpress", I got the impression that the TWA people did not want to give the Ozark people their seniority so it did appear to be an issue. Also, talking to some ex-TWA people, they told me there was some bitterness about the Ozark situation. And on another website, the ex-TWA pilots and ex-Ozark pilots are still arguing over that integration until this very day. I don't know what you mean by "what was done to us. " You wanted full seniority everywhere and we wanted full staple. The arbitrator ruled so it is basically a stalemate between the two groups. You are in the same situation as you were before the transaction. You had full seniority at STL and MCI before and you have the same thing after. The arbitrator put a fence between the two groups.
You say that we need to drop this issue and move on and I agree. But then when you are responding to a post on a totally unrelated topic you put a line in there referencing the seniority issue. Like in that post about AMFA and TUL you slip in the line saying that we dovetailed Ozark but not lets not go there and then Bob Owens says in his post lets go there.
I was talking to a person who is ex-TWA and he is very happy the way things turned out. He plans to retire shortly and says that his AA pension (after 4 years of service) will be almost the same as his TWA pension (after 30+years or service). He is happy that he will be getting retiree health care from AA as well as passes because he plans to travel a lot. So when you retire, you will pretty much get the same thing. So be thankful for what you do have and what you will get because remember a lot of people from Braniff, Eastern, and Pan Am receive none of this.

[post="255059"][/post]​

<_< a.a.! You are something else!!!! The MCIexpress no less??? And are you trying to tell me I should retire??? With you , it's like the pan calling the kettle black on this Seniority thing! I though it was me who said I didn't want to go there? And just another bit of trivea for you! Did you know that TWA gave space avaible passes to ex-Braniff, Eastern, and Pan Am employees up until the buyout??? Or there about's! I believe we were about the only one's doing that!

 

[aafsc]

<_< a.a.! You are something else!!!! The MCIexpress no less??? And are you trying to tell me I should retire??? With you , it's like the pan calling the kettle black on this Seniority thing! I though it was me who said I didn't want to go there? And just another bit of trivea for you! Did you know that TWA gave space avaible pass to ex-Braniff, Eastern, and Pan Am employees up until the buyout??? Or there about's! I believe we were about the only one's doing that!

[post="255069"][/post]​

I had heard something about TWA offering passes to the ex-employees or retirees of out of business airlines not to long ago. That was a good thing for TWA to do and I believe that most of the people who used them were greatful. As for retiring, well, that is entirely up to you. I can't wait but I have too long to go.

 

[MCI transplant]

I had heard something about TWA offering passes to the ex-employees or retirees of out of business airlines not to long ago. That was a good thing for TWA to do and I believe that most of the people who used them were greatful. As for retiring, well, that is entirely up to you. I can't wait but I have too long to go.

[post="255072"][/post]​

<_< Hey a.a.!------ Put in a sugestion to a.a. to do the same! It would be great P.R. for them, and I know a few people who would appricate it also!!!You've got more clout than I do!!!!! Signed: "Just another one of a.a.'s red headed step children!"

 

[aafsc]

<_< Hey a.a.!------ Put in a sugestion to a.a. to do the same! It would be great P.R. for them, and I know a few people who would appricate it also!!!You've got more clout than I do!!!!! Signed: "Just another one of a.a.'s red headed step children!"

[post="255225"][/post]​

Me, have clout in this place? I wish. I have the same amount of clout that you do. But there is an organization that helps get reduced travel for airline retirees, even retirees whose airline went out of business. All the retiree has to do is have some kind of proof that they are a retiree from an airline. The discounts seemed like they were pretty good. I can't remember the name of the organization right now but I will see if I can find it.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< Oh Bob! ----Just a little trivia for you! Do you know who is bankrolling the exTWA F/A's law suit against the APFA/AA? Non other than the I.A.M.!!!!! Now why would they want to do that?????

[post="254925"][/post]​

<_< What's wrong Bob!----- Don't you like this game!

 

[jimntx]

<_< Hey a.a.!------ Put in a sugestion to a.a. to do the same! It would be great P.R. for them, and I know a few people who would appricate it also!!!You've got more clout than I do!!!!! Signed: "Just another one of a.a.'s red headed step children!"

[post="255225"][/post]​

You're joking, right? AA doesn't even like its current employees and families non-revving. D3 (pass, not immediate family) charges are outrageous. My brother-in-law can buy a non-stop pos space ticket on SW from BHM to LAS (his and my sister's son is a test pilot at Nellis AFB) for less than a D3 pass on AA that would require a change of planes in DFW and no guarantee that he would get on the plane to LAS.