If a person had half a brain he/she would realize that if not for the unions the wage scale at the majors would be 1/3 of what it is now. And something that you may understand...all those working contract at various facilities who have been unable to get on with an airline would be making far less than they are making now...and forget the sign on bonus and the longevity. Face it unions are a necessary evil as without them all wages would plummet. Enjoy the scab wages you are receiving because if the union ceases to exist the next time mechanics are hired it will be at half your rate and guess what, when you move on to your next contract position it will be for less money!!! So bottom line is you had better hope unions survive for your own benefit!!!
Nwa New Talks With Mechanics Begin Thusday
- Thread starter FA Mikey
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PlayTheOdds
Veteran
Where have you been? Yes you have missed a lot. If you want to catch up start at the beginning of "Scabs does NW have them". Great reading. You don't have to read the whole thing but do browse through it. There was a guy here called KeepTheOdds that was banned due to an unpopularity vote. He attempted to warn these guys of Northwest’s union busting plan but got beat up instead.
I'm just here trying to continue his legacy. I felt really bad that I didn't jump in during the beginning to help him out.
I'm just here trying to continue his legacy. I felt really bad that I didn't jump in during the beginning to help him out.
PlayTheOdds said:
come on guys the post's are coming to slow can we get a lighting round here, I'm starting to fall asleep here, wheres all the radicals :unsure:
I'm gonna have to leave if we can't pick up the pace and you don't want that. B)
If SCAB is not there for a permanant job than he is just being used as a tool to break the union. There is truth in what is being said about union wages. I have seen A&P Mechanics working for as little as $6.50 per/hr in Right to Work states.
I have worked in Aviation as a union member and have worked in Aviation as a non-union member. There are big differences. Union jobs tend to be career jobs, non-union jobs tend to be jobs to get you by until you find a good job.
At my non-union job the benefit package changed without warning and we (employees) were told after the change what our new benefit package was. Our hours were changed at random, and there was no recourse if we felt we had been messed over in some way. I guess I'm wrong there, there was a recourse, tell them off and hit the gate. When layoff time came around there was lots of politicing involved. I saw people who had been with the co seven years walking out the gate with people who had been there only six months. When I got paid I was told to keep my labor rate to myself. I'm not a very good listener and I compared my rate of pay with people who had been there ten years. Guess what? The high timers rate of pay happened to be the same amount of pay mine was at day one. The high timers were not very happy to find out that my new hourly pay was the same as theirs and they had been there years longer than me. It all boils down to divide and conquer. I'll take a weak union, like the TWU or the IAM, rather than go without a union. I know with a union I have a better chance at having decent and fair wages and benefits than without a union. I also have a better chance of making it to retirement without the co thinking of some reason why I should be fired before reaching my retirement date. Go non-union if you want, I really don't care. But if you are being used by the co to break a union than I become involved. Instead of being part of the problem why not consider being part of the solution? Don't allow a scum bag corporation to use you to screw your fellow A&P's.
I have worked in Aviation as a union member and have worked in Aviation as a non-union member. There are big differences. Union jobs tend to be career jobs, non-union jobs tend to be jobs to get you by until you find a good job.
At my non-union job the benefit package changed without warning and we (employees) were told after the change what our new benefit package was. Our hours were changed at random, and there was no recourse if we felt we had been messed over in some way. I guess I'm wrong there, there was a recourse, tell them off and hit the gate. When layoff time came around there was lots of politicing involved. I saw people who had been with the co seven years walking out the gate with people who had been there only six months. When I got paid I was told to keep my labor rate to myself. I'm not a very good listener and I compared my rate of pay with people who had been there ten years. Guess what? The high timers rate of pay happened to be the same amount of pay mine was at day one. The high timers were not very happy to find out that my new hourly pay was the same as theirs and they had been there years longer than me. It all boils down to divide and conquer. I'll take a weak union, like the TWU or the IAM, rather than go without a union. I know with a union I have a better chance at having decent and fair wages and benefits than without a union. I also have a better chance of making it to retirement without the co thinking of some reason why I should be fired before reaching my retirement date. Go non-union if you want, I really don't care. But if you are being used by the co to break a union than I become involved. Instead of being part of the problem why not consider being part of the solution? Don't allow a scum bag corporation to use you to screw your fellow A&P's.
Garfield1966
Veteran
Oh OH OH I have a question.
How many of you union folks have a closet with garments that were all made in the USA by US labor? I assume no one here wears any type of athletic shoes (last I checked only one manufacture even makes any Athletic shoes here in the US), I know that no one owns a TV (they are all made in Asia). Does the US even make any appliances any more (better check your labels on them)? Everyone one of you drives a US manufactured car right? Is it better to buy a Honda made in Georgia or a Chrysler made in Mexico (that one always confused me)? I am assuming no one shops at Wall-mart, K-Mart, Target … etc since they are very union unfriendly and are putting the union workers at grocery stores out of business. Well, I know you all have PC’s so guess you’ll have to rationalize that one since most if not all the components were made over seas with non-union labor.
The bottom line is if all of you go though your lives and toss out everything that has been “out sourced†and that has cost American jobs, most of you will be late waking up (Asian alarm clock) eating foul food (Asian Fridge) walking out the door naked (clothes was made in China, Taiwan ..) thumbing a ride to work (had to sell your Honda, Toyota, …). Seems to me we are all guilty of it. In this respect, I fail to see much of a difference between the replacement workers and any of you who have sold out some other worker because you wanted a better deal rather than pay the higher price.
I don’t quite remember the saying (maybe someone here can help me out). It had something to do with a glass house and stones. Ring any bells?
How many of you union folks have a closet with garments that were all made in the USA by US labor? I assume no one here wears any type of athletic shoes (last I checked only one manufacture even makes any Athletic shoes here in the US), I know that no one owns a TV (they are all made in Asia). Does the US even make any appliances any more (better check your labels on them)? Everyone one of you drives a US manufactured car right? Is it better to buy a Honda made in Georgia or a Chrysler made in Mexico (that one always confused me)? I am assuming no one shops at Wall-mart, K-Mart, Target … etc since they are very union unfriendly and are putting the union workers at grocery stores out of business. Well, I know you all have PC’s so guess you’ll have to rationalize that one since most if not all the components were made over seas with non-union labor.
The bottom line is if all of you go though your lives and toss out everything that has been “out sourced†and that has cost American jobs, most of you will be late waking up (Asian alarm clock) eating foul food (Asian Fridge) walking out the door naked (clothes was made in China, Taiwan ..) thumbing a ride to work (had to sell your Honda, Toyota, …). Seems to me we are all guilty of it. In this respect, I fail to see much of a difference between the replacement workers and any of you who have sold out some other worker because you wanted a better deal rather than pay the higher price.
I don’t quite remember the saying (maybe someone here can help me out). It had something to do with a glass house and stones. Ring any bells?
Garfield1966 said:
When possible and that has become increasingly more difficult because of the lack of products, I do look for USA union products. In clothing, it is next to impossible as you won't find these products unless special ordered these days. So therefore I try to find USA products next if available. On all other products other than cloths, I do look for USA union products, followed by USA products. No Walmart/Sams under any circumstance at my house.
Garfield1966
Veteran
And what about everything else? Look, I work for AA, I am not union and I really could not care less what happens but it seems to me that the union folks an this forum seem to thing that when they take a crap, it smells like roses. America is beholden to the almighty dollar. Everyone here has made purchases that have put some poor SOB out of a job. But now when it's being done to you, it's like the world is coming to an end. It's hypocritical in my opinion. The world is changing, you can try and fight it all you want. You may actually win a few (hell, a horse beat a car once and we see how well that worked out for the horses) but life will go on so if you do not want to get left behind, you damn well better find a new game plan.
dc3fanatic
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No different from management's deal. I bet their benefits changed too.proAMFA said:
Again, different from MGT how?
Maybe that was based on performance? How aweful.
This sounds like pay for the work, not pay for seniority.
I would agree with this if the majority of the middle class were unionized, but they are not.
When you walk away from a job, the company has the right to find someone else to do the work.
Garfield1966 said:
Hey Garfield,
It's nice to see how accepting of change you are. Comparing peoples careers to buying foreign made products. We are talking about fellow Americans in the same profession screwing their fellow AMTs to make a quik buck. Why stop there using your logic? Hell, maybe hospitals should start bringing in scab Doctors and Nurses to save a buck. Who cares about quality anymore? Thats right, you get what you pay for! With the airline mechanics pay scale being diminished, do you really think the quality people will choose that career path? Do you really believe aircraft will be just as safe with so so maintenance? Right now there is a glut of experienced AMTs; however, it won't be the case in a few years. The schools that train AMTs are closing down nationwide, and the ones that are not closing are phazing out the AMT programs. Why, nobody in there right mind is going to pay 15 to 30k for a career that pays only a few more bucks than what a baggage handler makes per hour.
We will see how accepting you are when they phase out your job to a computer program. I could go accross the board on employee groups and find jobs that probably pay way to much for what the market would bring out side the industry. From pilots to baggage handlers, and lets not forget about the $46ph flight dipatchers.
I don't mind throwing stones, I have plenty of ammo! B)
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
Do you have to hold an A&P to be an AMT?
PlayTheOdds said:
I don't know but I think Aircraft Mechanics should hold one would you want a Doctor with no license to practic medicine working on you, I don't what about a lawyer with no license to practice law or a Pilot with no license, not having a license is not a good idea.
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
That’s not true where mechanics are involved. The majority of the contract industry doesn't have A&P certificates. Most are really good mechanics and some are better than the A&P holders. A hydraulic system is a hydraulic system now matter what type of equipment it is on. Brakes are brakes, you don’t need a degree to turn a wrench just a little common sense and an idea of how things are supposed to work. An aircraft as a whole is a complicated piece of equipment but when you break it down into individual components there is really nothing to it.
PlayTheOdds said:
Ya that is true but an A&P is a quick way of telling management and everyone else that you are trained, I'm not saying that a non A&P cannot fix a plane but it sure makes passengers feel better to know that most Mechanics have one, in theory you could be a Doctor without a license if you could find good training where you did not get a license, it is just a way for people to know for sure that you have been trained, something more than a person's word that they have training.
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
You are absolutely correct on that aspect of it. An A&P will progress through the ranks of a company where a non-A&P mechanic will never advance. He will get raises but he will not move up the ladder. I wonder if that is why the guys are so hell bent on unions? Maybe none of them are A&P holders and are pissed because their careers haven’t advanced after 10, 15 and 20 years.
I think the more educated a person is the less they like being in a Union as they tend to think the Union is holding them back with people who have less education, the reverse is probably true as well people with less education feel they can compete better in a Union enviroment.
