NWA losing Scabs

[Kev3188]

For everyone getting all upset by the productivity discussion, I will clarify that this is just a financial measure of the labor productivity to a company. Obviously there are other factors involved, including safety. No need to get your panties all in a bunch. I was just answering Piney's question as to how a company could benefit from not having a seniority system for their unions, and this happens to be the "theoretical" financial benefit that would exist.

I have no idea what your post means, Local.

The way I see it, there are two solutions to this issue:

1. The Easy Fix: Offer early outs to the senior employees, one that's actually worth something. This would have a least some effect on the overall labor unit cost long term.

2. The Systemic Overhaul: Roll the hubs and/or grow the airline. If you're paying me roughly $17.37/hr (FYI,that's the new T.O.S. including lead pay, Finman), do you want me to work 10 flights a shift, or 15? As previously discussed, rolling the hubs also has the advantage of lowering fixed facility costs, while raising A/C utilization. The Heartland flights to LAS, and Florida are baby steps in the right direction, IMO.

As an aside regarding an earlier post about sick calls: It's been my experience that the junior employees dial in much more often than the senior ones.....

As for new hires "not making the cut," out of the last 5 PT'ers hired in my station, 4 completely washed (or are washing) out...and that doesn't include the ones that quit before training.

 

[finman]

The way I see it, there are two solutions to this issue:

1. The Easy Fix: Offer early outs to the senior employees, one that's actually worth something. This would have a least some effect on the overall labor unit cost long term.

2. The Systemic Overhaul: Roll the hubs and/or grow the airline. If you're paying me roughly $17.37/hr (FYI,that's the new T.O.S. including lead pay, Finman), do you want me to work 10 flights a shift, or 15? As previously discussed, rolling the hubs also has the advantage of lowering fixed facility costs, while raising A/C utilization.

As an aside regarding an earlier post about sick calls: It's been my experience that the junior employees dial in much more often than the senior ones.....

Very good points.

I think the FA T/A offered some significant early outs (up to $22,000 I believe), and the pilot T/A has some options as well.

The sick call thing was more directed at pilots, where there is a very strong positive correlation between age and sick abscences. I can't speak to the other groups, but I'll take your word that your work group may have an inverse correlation.

The increased unproductive time due to vacation for the more senior employees is one that I'm assuming would hold true for all work groups. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't get more vacation with more seniority, but that's just the hard financial metric that results.

 

[Kev3188]

Very good points.

I think the FA T/A offered some significant early outs (up to $22,000 I believe), and the pilot T/A has some options as well.

The ground ops T/A's offered a severance package that you could use to transition to retirement if your station was one that was slated for closure. Otherwise, the only way to take advantage of the program was if someone junior to you was going to be displaced (you'd go in their place). It's an anecdotal example, but in my station 3 or 4 (out of 15) people have said they would have taken a "straight" early out if it was ever offered.

The increased unproductive time due to vacation for the more senior employees is one that I'm assuming would hold true for all work groups. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't get more vacation with more seniority, but that's just the hard financial metric that results.

Fair enough, but once you reach the top of the wage scale, increased vacation accrual is only financial "incentive" you receive.

 

[finman]

Fair enough, but once you reach the top of the wage scale, increased vacation accrual is only financial "incentive" you receive.

Very true.

Just to be clear, I happen to think that a pay scale and vacation accrual scale that is tied to years of service is the most fair and equitable manner to compensate large work groups, like the ones at NWA. I think it's up to management to work within this system to ensure that productivity is optimized as best as possible. The two recommendations you made earlier are prime examples of how those productivity gains could be achieved within this framework.

 

[local 12 proud]

For everyone getting all upset by the productivity discussion, I will clarify that this is just a financial measure of the labor productivity to a company. Obviously there are other factors involved, including safety. No need to get your panties all in a bunch. I was just answering Piney's question as to how a company could benefit from not having a seniority system for their unions, and this happens to be the "theoretical" financial benefit that would exist.

I have no idea what your post means, Local.

you are the typical bean counter finman, you understand charts & graphs and the "theoretical" financial implications that may or may not be achieved, as you said it is only a THEORY. What you are leaving out of this equation cant be measured, and that is the human factor.

This is not China where you have a bunch of brainwashed worker Bee's, though Im beginning to think many in this Country including yourself would be quite pleased to have that system in place. your arguement that this is a global economy and we must compete with these types of countries makes it ever so clear to me what is transpiring in this country, and before you start flaming with "your all a bunch of conspiracy fanatics who think Big government/buisness is out to get ya" vomit you like to spew, try getting outside of that cubicle of yours and see whats happening to the middle class in this country.

This country is nearly 8 trillion in debt thats an 8 with 12 zeros behind it, im sure youve seen it on your graphs and charts. who do you think is going to be asked to shoulder this growing insurmountable debt load? the Rich?..nope they get all the government sponsored Tax breaks, you know like offshoring and moving their buisness overseas to places like china., the Poor?..Nope they have'nt enough income to need worry about taxes. So who do you think that leaves to shoulder this burden Finman?

Yea lets pay the lowest wages possible in order to increase stock value, in the mean time Rome burns to the ground.

I Know I strayed a bit off topic, but I think this pertains to the subject matter at hand!

regards Local 12 Proud

 

[finman]

you are the typical bean counter finman, you understand charts & graphs and the "theoretical" financial implications that may or may not be achieved, as you said it is only a THEORY. What you are leaving out of this equation cant be measured, and that is the human factor.

This country is nearly 8 trillion in debt thats an 8 with 12 zeros behind it, im sure youve seen it on your graphs and charts.

I think you're taking the intent of the discussion a little too literally. See my post above for clarification of my actual opinion on the matter.

Yes, I agree that government spending is out of control. Hopefully some "real" Republicans or Libertarians get elected that cut the federal government down to what is should be funding, and that's protecting us from invasion and maintaining common infrastructure. I'd guess a third of the budget could be cut without anybody (except government employees) even noticing.

 

[local 12 proud]

Yes, I agree that government spending is out of control. Hopefully some "real" Republicans or Libertarians get elected that cut the federal government down to what is should be funding, and that's protecting us from invasion and maintaining common infrastructure. I'd guess a third of the budget could be cut without anybody (except government employees) even noticing.

No arguement from me there, all except the part of getting a Repulican elected and I won't even get started on that topic.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Not that NWA is losing Scabs in this scenario but it does show where NWA needs to open up some overtime for the ones that are wanting to work it. It seems that quiet a few Scabs are taking a second job with the contract houses and working a second shift at Spirit across the airport at the Smith terminal. This makes for some exceptionally long days and one must wonder if fatigue might have an affect on their performance. You figure they will be putting in seventeen hours a day working, plus drive time and most are working their days off. That doesn't leave a lot of time for personal time and rest. I think NWA needs to better utilize their resources and keep these guys busy.

 

[robbedagain]

the only way NWA will ever better utilize their resources is to get rid of the bad resources--MGMT and the SCABS. Those are the worst resources to have. They need a whole new set of mgmt people WILLING TO WORK WITH EMPLOYEES, not treat them like trash. They need to bring back AMFA. Those AMFA people were the REAL MECHANICS, not SCABS. Once that is completed, then NWA would be a safer airline to fly on. For now that is a dream but oh well

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

Scabs working on helicopters? PTO and his scabby lovers are now going to be pencil whipping main rotor "Jesus nuts". Lord help us! I guess Sikorsky will have to be renamed "Seacrashkey".

Hey kiddo! just wondering..did ya ever get that list of pencil whippers for me? Let me know who they are, and what action they pencil whipped, and I will most gladly ariate thier life support systems with a fork. (its a euphimism guys, dont get all sensitive)

This story about beating SCABS is funny stuff. If I saw SCABS being beaten I'd laugh until sunset. I love it!
-------------------------------------------
SCABS, Destined for ER...HA HA HA!

I do long for the good old days when men settled thier issue with a good right hook! This immasculated, effiminate "my layer is bigger than your lawer Please dont offend me or I'll sue" atitude makes me wanna puke! I can remember when this used to be one tough town. Now look at us! (by the way, I abhor violence, and will stomp anyone into a puddle who makes me use it!)

Overall productivity can be broken down into two components: Physical productivity (widgets produced per hour) and Rate productivity (dollars paid per hour). This overall productivity is effectively the dollars paid per widget produced.

If you are top scale and earn $20/hr, and you produce 110 widgets per hour and your co-worker makes $15/hr and produces 100 widgets per hour, who is more productive in total?

The guy that makes $15/hr is more productive, because his unfavorable physical productivity (10% fewer widgets per hour) is more than offset by the favorable rate productivity (25% less pay per hour).

In most airline unionized positions, it would be difficult to assign a higher physical productivity to a group of more senior employees. For example, a 12 year pilot is going to get the plane from A to B in the same amount of time and in the same condition as a 6 year pilot. In addition, the 6 year guy uses less vacation and likely calls in sick less, so he is actually more productive on both measures (physical and rate).

That's why a topped out employee is generally less productive than a lower paid employee that is in the same work group. Naturally, there are exceptions here, as a new hire or someone that just wasn't catching on would probably have such a miserable physical productivity that the pay rate differential doesn't make the junion person more productive. I guess the underlying assumption I'm using here is that after 3 to 4 years on the job, there probably isn't much of a physical productivity gain with years of service, and since the rates go up with years of service, the 3+ guys are probably much more productive in total than top step guys.

Not a bad point at all...perhaps a bit high brow for some on this board, but still, well said.

 

[jenny@nw]

In most airline unionized positions, it would be difficult to assign a higher physical productivity to a group of more senior employees. For example, a 12 year pilot is going to get the plane from A to B in the same amount of time and in the same condition as a 6 year pilot. In addition, the 6 year guy uses less vacation and likely calls in sick less, so he is actually more productive on both measures (physical and rate).

That's why a topped out employee is generally less productive than a lower paid employee that is in the same work group. Naturally, there are exceptions here, as a new hire or someone that just wasn't catching on would probably have such a miserable physical productivity that the pay rate differential doesn't make the junion person more productive. I guess the underlying assumption I'm using here is that after 3 to 4 years on the job, there probably isn't much of a physical productivity gain with years of service, and since the rates go up with years of service, the 3+ guys are probably much more productive in total than top step guys.

Question for you: I am presuming your stance is that people with union wages that topped out producing tangible items are not as productive as junior ones.

Do I smell Six Sigma???

Surely, I do see your point however typical nature of individuals with business backgrounds, many cannot understand the "human factor" nor the "human nature" of the enviroment.


Now if that scenario is so, how do we measure this within the service industry parameter such as an airline which is cyclical (with 3% profits).

How do you measure a skill set which is hard to replace?
Can a pilot of 6 yrs can land a 747 with a two inch sliver of view in the cockpit if a mishap should occur?

If you had jumpseated in the cockpit, you would know that takes extreme skill (and we are not talking Microsoft Simulator).

How about welding? Everyone knows that a good welder is one that has been doing it for a number of years.

How do we retain individuals with good skill set that is invaluable and at times SAVES COST?


How much does it cost to hire, background check, retrain individuals in employment where the turn over rate is typically high for new hires? Prodcutivity can be pretty slow when you have new hires every month...........

How do you retain employees after you train them?


I'm sure what model they had in mind was having 1 person who is knowlegeable overseeing 2 who has little knowlege of maintenance (like guess who).

This made sense (from a business standpoint) but overall- who considered the human factor? Nobody- except a very few selct companies.....

After all work groups had been mistreated, who is going to treat the customers nicely anymore?
Who is going to care about their jobs now?
How much does it cost to bring back and retain current loyal customers? (((after the 15$ nonsense, forget it)))

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Not that NWA is losing Scabs in this scenario but it does show where NWA needs to open up some overtime for the ones that are wanting to work it. It seems that quiet a few Scabs are taking a second job with the contract houses and working a second shift at Spirit across the airport at the Smith terminal. This makes for some exceptionally long days and one must wonder if fatigue might have an affect on their performance. You figure they will be putting in seventeen hours a day working, plus drive time and most are working their days off. That doesn't leave a lot of time for personal time and rest. I think NWA needs to better utilize their resources and keep these guys busy.

So the scabs are violating the FAR's by working all of their days off. FAR's say Airline AMT's must have at least 4 days off a month. Time to call the FAA, not that they will ever do anything about it. Thanks to scabs like you,PTO. AMT's now have to depend on overtime just to make ends meet. What a life you scabs have. Work(scab)work(scab)work(scab) and no time for anything else except to scab.



Ganggreen here's your pencil whipper list again.

PTO,Csar Gyrene,OPUS,Jetwreck,any Northwest SCAB.

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

So the scabs are violating the FAR's by working all of their days off. FAR's say Airline AMT's must have at least 4 days off a month. Time to call the FAA, not that they will ever do anything about it. Thanks to scabs like you,PTO. AMT's now have to depend on overtime just to make ends meet. What a life you scabs have. Work(scab)work(scab)work(scab) and no time for anything else except to scab.
Ganggreen here's your pencil whipper list again.

PTO,Csar Gyrene,OPUS,Jetwreck,any Northwest SCAB.

Outstanding! She can be taught! Now, kiddo, finish up by listing SPECIFIC incidents...oh, thats right, I forgot...YOU CANT! Credibility zero!

 

[PlayTheOdds]

So the scabs are violating the FAR's by working all of their days off. FAR's say Airline AMT's must have at least 4 days off a month. Time to call the FAA, not that they will ever do anything about it. Thanks to scabs like you,PTO. AMT's now have to depend on overtime just to make ends meet. What a life you scabs have. Work(scab)work(scab)work(scab) and no time for anything else except to scab.

My Darling Princess once again you prove your ignorance of the contract industry. We do not seek overtime to make ends meet, we seek overtime because that is where the gravy is plus it keeps us occupied while away from home. To you work is work but to us it is an enjoyable form of entertainment. Getting paid overtime is just bonus. These guys are here to work and eight hours a day simply isn't cutting it. If NWA is concerned about paying out overtime they then need to go to a ten hour a day four-day workweek. As of now it is going to be tough for them to retain mechanics on an eight hour a day six-day workweek. Contractors simply are not going to put up with it. They will find employment elsewhere. That Sikorsky project is looking better and better everyday.

 

[AP Tech]

So you do not care about the duty regs set forth in the FAR's? Interesting.......