No to the Alliance!

[scorpion 2]

You're welcome Shifty. I don't suppose you would even consider telling the entire story rather than continuing to try and get people frightened of the big bad Boogy Man?

7 days to the Big Strike Out.

3cbb81d3013da374ed0448760edb9d35.jpg

You posted it I just quoted you!

 

[WeAAsles]

You posted it I just quoted you!

You quoted someone who was trying to be fair in the entire conversation.  I should have known that at least one of you guys was just a slug who would use it to try to "ATTEMPT" to get your agenda across.

Pathetic that you need to not tell the entire story to try to SCARE people into going in your direction.

I guess you don't even care if you take advantage of ignorant Brothers as long as you think you can win.

7 days left Shifty.  

 

[Bob Owens]

IIRC someone here claimed that the AA pension plan was $2 billion underfunded. That statement is grossly misleading. Currently the fund has $80,000 in assetts per participant, the majority of whom are still working. On average the plan assumes that over the next 40 to 50 years they will need to pay out around $130,000 per participant. What gets left out is Interest on the money thats already sitting in the plan and will continue to sit in the plan. While the 8.25% may prove to be overly optimistic over the long run its doubtful that $2billlion more will be needed to cover the obligations of the plan.


If our pension was transferred to the IAMNPF moving normal retirement from 60 to 65 and enacting the other restrictions such as the 4.5% early retirement penalty and prohibition on working that would cut the obligation by up to 30%, so now only $91000 would be needed on average. That would drop the plans liabilities to around $3.9 billion, payable over the next 40 years or so. A 6% ROI for less than three years on the current fund assetts would cover that liabilty. Using the 4% ROI we are talking about maybe six or seven years.

So the IAMNPF could actually inherit a positive cash flow from this fund wher current Assetts would generate more over the long run than the obligations would would consume. Why would the company agree to this? Because it clears the liabilkity off their balance sheet and combined with the IAMNPF going forward would save them a lot compared to a 17% contribution like the give the pilots.

Nowhere in the statement does it say the plan is underfunded by $2billion. Thats a misleading difference between current plan assetts and liabilities that will be paid out over the next 40 to 50 years, a liability that will only go down as the years go by, during which the assetts in the plan could generate enough earnings through investments to more than cover the obligations. While I agree that 8.25 may be high even if we went with the PBGCs much more pessimistic figure of 4% the shortfall would be less than a Billion, over the next 40 to 50 years.

 

[psa8979]

Brother WeAA  there is only one other Craft/Class Rank/File Worker more arrogant , self-rightous , and hard headed then Metal Heads and they sit in the front two seats of the airplane. 7 more days ? ASSOCIATION get use to it . 

 

[WeAAsles]

IIRC someone here claimed that the AA pension plan was $2 billion underfunded. That statement is grossly misleading. Currently the fund has $80,000 in assetts per participant, the majority of whom are still working. On average the plan assumes that over the next 40 to 50 years they will need to pay out around $130,000 per participant. What gets left out is Interest on the money thats already sitting in the plan and will continue to sit in the plan. While the 8.25% may prove to be overly optimistic over the long run its doubtful that $2billlion more will be needed to cover the obligations of the plan.

Depending on Market performance I agree.


If our pension was transferred to the IAMNPF moving normal retirement from 60 to 65 and enacting the other restrictions such as the 4.5% early retirement penalty and prohibition on working that would cut the obligation by up to 30%, so now only $91000 would be needed on average. That would drop the plans liabilities to around $3.9 billion, payable over the next 40 years or so. A 6% ROI for less than three years on the current fund assetts would cover that liabilty. Using the 4% ROI we are talking about maybe six or seven years.

Not happening. Their is no IAM Boogyman.

So the IAMNPF could actually inherit a positive cash flow from this fund wher current Assetts would generate more over the long run than the obligations would would consume. Why would the company agree to this? Because it clears the liabilkity off their balance sheet and combined with the IAMNPF going forward would save them a lot compared to a 17% contribution like the give the pilots.

Not happening. Their is no IAM Boogyman. 17% huh? Ok nothing wrong with aiming for the moon as long as you don't overshoot and end up floating off in space.

Nowhere in the statement does it say the plan is underfunded by $2billion. Thats a misleading difference between current plan assetts and liabilities that will be paid out over the next 40 to 50 years, a liability that will only go down as the years go by, during which the assetts in the plan could generate enough earnings through investments to more than cover the obligations. While I agree that 8.25 may be high even if we went with the PBGCs much more pessimistic figure of 4% the shortfall would be less than a Billion, over the next 40 to 50 years.

I believe yes that AA will have no problem funding that shortfall and when I walk out of here in 12 years I'll still be getting a check that says American Airlines Pension on it.

I checked in my closet and under my bed. No IAM Boogymen.

 

[WeAAsles]

Brother WeAA  there is only one other Craft/Class Rank/File Worker more arrogant , self-rightous , and hard headed then Metal Heads and they sit in the front two seats of the airplane. 7 more days ? ASSOCIATION get use to it . 

lol. Some of them yea, but we have a few hard heads of our own in our group. (Me for one)

 

[scorpion 2]

You quoted someone who was trying to be fair in the entire conversation.  I should have known that at least one of you guys was just a slug who would use it to try to "ATTEMPT" to get your agenda across.

Pathetic that you need to not tell the entire story to try to SCARE people into going in your direction.

I guess you don't even care if you take advantage of ignorant Brothers as long as you think you can win.

7 days left Shifty.  

Don't be embarrassed about posting what we have been saying all along about the pension trust being under siege.
The only entities taking advantage of unsuspecting men and women are the two corrupt industrial unions. What is the true agenda behind these back room agreements?  Why weren't the local presidents involved in the decision making process when these agreements were made? 
What about our stock being sold? Talk about taking advantage of a situation. Now that the stock has been cashed out the membership can kiss that sh!t goodbye! There is absolutely no way to track where all the money is being spent. They probably used stock sell proceeds to put Doyle up in Tulsa. Had him a few steak n lobsters with $100 bottles of wine. We would never know the difference. There are expenses related to fighting these suits brothers! We fought hard with your money! We got hungry and thirsty along the way so a lot of the money went to keep us fed and hydrated. Oh and yes we had a few massages to keep us loosened up to do battle for you guys. I can here it now, we spent all the money but we will get those retirees next time brother! 

 

[scorpion 2]

 

IIRC someone here claimed that the AA pension plan was $2 billion underfunded. That statement is grossly misleading. Currently the fund has $80,000 in assetts per participant, the majority of whom are still working. On average the plan assumes that over the next 40 to 50 years they will need to pay out around $130,000 per participant. What gets left out is Interest on the money thats already sitting in the plan and will continue to sit in the plan. While the 8.25% may prove to be overly optimistic over the long run its doubtful that $2billlion more will be needed to cover the obligations of the plan.

Depending on Market performance I agree.


If our pension was transferred to the IAMNPF moving normal retirement from 60 to 65 and enacting the other restrictions such as the 4.5% early retirement penalty and prohibition on working that would cut the obligation by up to 30%, so now only $91000 would be needed on average. That would drop the plans liabilities to around $3.9 billion, payable over the next 40 years or so. A 6% ROI for less than three years on the current fund assetts would cover that liabilty. Using the 4% ROI we are talking about maybe six or seven years.

Not happening. Their is no IAM Boogyman.

So the IAMNPF could actually inherit a positive cash flow from this fund wher current Assetts would generate more over the long run than the obligations would would consume. Why would the company agree to this? Because it clears the liabilkity off their balance sheet and combined with the IAMNPF going forward would save them a lot compared to a 17% contribution like the give the pilots.

Not happening. Their is no IAM Boogyman. 17% huh? Ok nothing wrong with aiming for the moon as long as you don't overshoot and end up floating off in space.

Nowhere in the statement does it say the plan is underfunded by $2billion. Thats a misleading difference between current plan assetts and liabilities that will be paid out over the next 40 to 50 years, a liability that will only go down as the years go by, during which the assetts in the plan could generate enough earnings through investments to more than cover the obligations. While I agree that 8.25 may be high even if we went with the PBGCs much more pessimistic figure of 4% the shortfall would be less than a Billion, over the next 40 to 50 years.

I believe yes that AA will have no problem funding that shortfall and when I walk out of here in 12 years I'll still be getting a check that says American Airlines Pension on it.

I checked in my closet and under my bed. No IAM Boogymen.

 

I checked in my closet and under my bed. No IAM Boogymen.
Thats cause your head is up his a$$.

 

[WeAAsles]

Don't be embarrassed about posting what we have been saying all along about the pension trust being under siege.
The only entities taking advantage of unsuspecting men and women are the two corrupt industrial unions. What is the true agenda behind these back room agreements?  Why weren't the local presidents involved in the decision making process when these agreements were made? 
What about our stock being sold? Talk about taking advantage of a situation. Now that the stock has been cashed out the membership can kiss that sh!t goodbye! There is absolutely no way to track where all the money is being spent. They probably used stock sell proceeds to put Doyle up in Tulsa. Had him a few steak n lobsters with $100 bottles of wine. We would never know the difference. There are expenses related to fighting these suits brothers! We fought hard with your money! We got hungry and thirsty along the way so a lot of the money went to keep us fed and hydrated. Oh and yes we had a few massages to keep us loosened up to do battle for you guys. I can here it now, we spent all the money but we will get those retirees next time brother! 

It's great to never say what your real name is so you can post all sorts of Kooky Crapola and never have anyone come up to you and laugh in your face when you find out that EVERYTHING you have been putting out there is flaky, fruitcake nuts.

And when it all get's done you'll NEVER NEVER NEVER come back on here and say "Man I was wrong"

 

[WeAAsles]

I checked in my closet and under my bed. No IAM Boogymen.
Thats cause your head is up his a$$.

So clever. What a great edumacation you must have?

 

[700UW]

So Bob,
 
You know more than AA, the TWU, the PBGC and the DOL?
 
So is AA being fraudulent as they filed this with the Federal Government under ERISA?
 
You must be a DJ cause you spin more than a turntable.

The asset values in the chart above are measured as of the first day of the Plan Year. They also are “actuarial values”.
 
Actuarial values differ from market values in that they do not fluctuate daily based on changes in the stock or other markets.
 
Actuarial values smooth out those fluctuations and can allow for more predictable levels of future contributions. Despite the fluctuations,market values tend to show a clearer picture of a plan’s funded status at a given point in time.
 
As of December 31, 2014, the fair market value of the Plan’s assets was estimated at $3,747,000,000.
 
On this same date, the Plan’s liabilities, determined using market rates, were estimated at $5,610,000,000.
 
For this purpose, liabilities were calculated based on a discount rate of approximately 4.19% as mandated by ERISA. This liability calculation is not the same methodology provided by Pension Protection Act of 2006 (PPA) airline relief rules which is the basis for the funded status calculated on page one of this notice.
 

 
http://c.hub.aa.com/...61_apfn_twu.pdf
 

AMR By the Numbers
Plans: 4
Total workers and retirees: about 130,000
Estimated pension assets: about $8.3 billion
Estimated benefits owed: about $18.5 billion
Estimated amount Insured by PBGC, if pension plans fail: About $17 billion
Premiums paid to date from AMR to PBGC: about $260 million

http://www.pbgc.gov/...r-pensions.html

 

[scorpion 2]

It's great to never say what your real name is so you can post all sorts of Kooky Crapola and never have anyone come up to you and laugh in your face when you find out that EVERYTHING you have been putting out there is flaky, fruitcake nuts.

And when it all get's done you'll NEVER NEVER NEVER come back on here and say "Man I was wrong"

k16646601.jpg

I do believe I touched a nerve on that one! 

 

[WeAAsles]

I do believe I touched a nerve on that one!

Not really. You're just a nameless, faceless character on one of probably 10's of thousands of message boards. I've said my name on here and where I work and what I do.

And you can't control yourself from responding to me even though I have no vote in your class and craft.

Why is that?

Here fishy. Nibble, nibble.

 

[scorpion 2]

So Bob,
 
You know more than AA, the TWU, the PBGC and the DOL?
 
So is AA being fraudulent as they filed this with the Federal Government under ERISA?
 
You must be a DJ cause you spin more than a turntable.
 
http://c.hub.aa.com/...61_apfn_twu.pdf
 
http://www.pbgc.gov/...r-pensions.html

I noticed you won't address the fact that if you're numbers are correct that our pension trust is fully funded if it were to be transferred to the iamnpf using that plans guidelines.  Thats if you are correct that our plan is in the red. If it isn't in the red than it would bring a huge influx of cash to the iamnpf trust. How much is the iamnpf insured for compared to its funding level by the PBGC?  What kind of fuzzy math does it use to get its fully funded status?  What tools are in place to lower benefits to get the plan back to fully funded status verses?   Why don't you flip the record and play the other side.

 

[scorpion 2]

 

I left nothing out. I merely posted the information that was presented. After doing some research you are correct by reading this link I found. The attempt was made and turned down by the PBGC who was asked to foot the bill for the underfunding.
 
The PBGC should have the authority and willingness to implement creative labor-management solutions to preserve pension benefits. At United Airlines, the IAM and United negotiated a proposal that would have included restoration funding by the PBGC and transferring United’s pension liabilities to the IAM National Pension Plan. It would have left United in substantially the same position as it is today, following termination, and would have saved the PBGC $500 million dollars while preserving pension benefits for our members. Unfortunately, the PBGC rejected the deal.

http://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/rrtest060705.pdf

Now if you read the letter in full you'll see that the IAM had proposed to UAL in 2000 that they FREEZE the plan and transfer their members into the IAMPF going forward.

In 2005 from reading the letter rather than the pensions being thrown on the PBGC now that UAL had underfunded them, the IAM DID propose to take over the entirety of the pension plans. If you look at the financials of the PBGC it is almost catastrophically underfunded. There is a very strong future likelihood that absent a taxpayer bailout, substantial raising of the insurance premiums charged to companies or "Reduction In Payouts" the PBGC will likely one day become insolvent. Can you guess which one will likely take place one day?

So the way I look at it the IAM sought to preserve as much as they could of that Pension and the liabilities since it was going to be thrown into a riskier proposition anyway and take on that fund by putting it into the IAMPF.

Ours is currently frozen and is no longer at risk of being thrown on the PBGC. Plus the company made accelerated payments to the tune of an extra $700 Million dollars above obligations for 2014. Trying to compare Apples and Oranges against the two very different scenarios doesn't quite stack up.