No to the Alliance!

[WeAAsles]

Future liabilities are based more than likely on the expected US Life Expectancy rate. So that funding is not there yet because at least at this moment it doesn't need to be. But the company needs to continue that funding until it reaches all future needs for active fund participants.

U.S. expectancy in 2011 was 78.7 years, which is slightly below the OECD average of 80.1. For U.S. men, the average life expectancy is 76, while it's 81 for U.S. women. (At five years, this gap in life expectancy between men and women is smaller than the OECD average of six years).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/21/us-life-expectancy-oecd_n_4317367.html

Here is something else that can give readers a general idea of what I'm talking about and it's an issue we should all be concerned with anyway as the lobbyists for UPS and FED EX are trying to kill the USPS.
 
At the very end of that year, Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 (PAEA). Under PAEA, USPS was forced to “prefund its future health care benefit payments to retirees for the next 75 years in an astonishing ten-year time span” — meaning that it had to put aside billions of dollars to pay for the health benefits of employees it hasn’t even hired yet, something “that no other government or private corporation is required to do.”
As consumer advocate Ralph Nader noted, if PAEA was never enacted, USPS would actually be facing a $1.5 billion surplus today:

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/09/28/330524/postal-non-crisis-post-office-save-itself/

 

[WeAAsles]

One more.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/airline-industry/20141130-american-airline-asks-to-extend-deferral-on-pensions.ece

 

[bob@las-AA]

It doesn't matter to the amount "Market Value". It will always appear to be under funded because the “actuarial values” will determine weather this smoothing falls within a higher amount of the liabilities. Brownian Motion is used and then smoothed to let AA know, how much to deposit into the fund from year to year.
 
This is what this Brownian Motion looks like,
In this pic are 7 Brownian Motion movements over 10 periods. The thick reddish line is the "mean" of all the movements.
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7qadFaPIn_uTzhWSGltbmxldVE/view?usp=sharing
 
I will refine it later to give a better understanding.
 
This pension deferral is NOT a warning sign, period! 

 

[WeAAsles]

It doesn't matter to the amount "Market Value". It will always appear to be under funded because the “actuarial values” will determine weather this smoothing falls within a higher amount of the liabilities. Brownian Motion is used and then smoothed to let AA know, how much to deposit into the fund from year to year.
 
This is what this Brownian Motion looks like,
In this pic are 7 Brownian Motion movements over 10 periods. The thick reddish line is the "mean" of all the movements.

Ok we are on the same page then. I thought for a minute you were one of the posters on this page who couldn't understand the words "Target" and "Projected"? It is currently underfunded though for future liabilities but funding is not static but fluid and the funding will continue as AA progresses into the future and generates revenue to pay all of it's current and future debts. Again why at this moment they are on target.
 
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7qadFaPIn_uTzhWSGltbmxldVE/view?usp=sharing
 
I will refine it later to give a better understanding.
 
This pension deferral is NOT a warning sign, period! 

It's not. Actually except for the aggressive rate-of-growth assumptions that they currently enjoy over their rivals they are at a competitive disadvantage to their peers. I agree with their advocacy to extend the funding but they can't have their cake and eat it too and be expected to keep the favorable rate of growth assumptions. AA should pick their poison in regards to their lobbying?

 

[bob@las-AA]

 

Well put

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 

Yes they did sell fear. I guess looking at all of the airlines that went out of business and the few that did survive and the hits their employees took was a good reason to be fearful in the minds of certain individuals in leadership roles? Yea I know, let's ignore all of that though right?



 

You're kidding right? Complaining about selling fear then basically citing the ultimate fear campaign.   You seem to forget that when the airlines started this whole BK scam most didn't ask nearly what AA was able to get without going BK. UAL, whose workers were earning more than us had setted for a 14% paycut, till we turned around and gave 25%. That threw everything out of what and US went back for another bite. 
 
 
AA is making billions, we need to get in , get what we can for as short a term as possible. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Your pension is almost two billion underfund, can you not see what has been put out from AA and the TWU?

How many times do I have to post it?

Using a 4% rate, what is the level of funding of the IAMNPF? 
 
I was against Jim Littles support of the higher rate of return assumption, sadly membership dues were used to lobby for that. I disagree with FWAAA as far as that high assumption being acceptable (because of the last twenty years)  but 4% is probably a little on the low end of what the fund will see from now till the last payment is made. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Personally I'd like to see it funded at the lower rate because the better its funded the less likely they can ever use the status of the pension in any future negotiations. 
 
If the fund was truly 100% funded then there would be less incentive for the company to agree to move the fund, not more, and as I've said, moving the fund to the more restrictive terms would eliminate up to 30% of the monies needed. An additional benefit would be that the more restrictive terms would help captivate more mechanics to stay and work into old age. The benefit to the IAMNPF is that they get a captive membership. 
 
Still say that we need to push for a contribution similar to what the pilots have. The benefit to the company is that there is no long term liability and if they fall on hard times they could try and reduce the contribution. The benefit to us is that at 55 and we are tired of their crap we can take what we earned, retire at 55 and try something else while having an income from the pension. With all the NWA management people they are adding to the ranks it don't look like this place is going to become a better place to work in the future. 

 

[psa8979]

 Brothers you 'll  can go on and on about the Pension/401k/Profit Sharing schemes with facts/myths/ lies forever. Whining , crying , and posting about how those of us who have been around since de-regulation got lied to/ hosed / robbed/  has no value moving forward with AAL Inc. The bottom line is WE must push the ASSOCIATION CB Committee's  for a EARLY OUT in JCBA that will recover some of our loss $$$ and Retire . Plus a modest $ increase for the Junior Members who will get their increases in future CBA 's . One statistic that will come out in JCB is that  aprox. 50%  of ALL !  below the wing Members are at or will be at retirement age during JCBN's and term of CBA . Time to step up and focus . 7 more days ? 

 

[swamt]

Back on topic--NO TO THE ALLIANCE AND/OR ASSOCIATION----PERIOD...

 

[WeAAsles]

Back on topic--NO TO THE ALLIANCE AND/OR ASSOCIATION----PERIOD...

Thank you for your opinion since you don't even work for either AA or US but in fact work for SWA and have no attachment to our issues.

Just yesterday you wrote:

"Anyone expecting a contract anytime soon is sadly mistaken.  We won't even have one this year and this is the way the company wants it in order to please the investors first.  I would actually be shocked if we have anything to vote on by Jan 1, 2016.  With the way the company is delaying and delaying setting only one meet date in 3 months is just proof of what they are doing on purpose.  This Aug will be 3 years since amendable date, maybe after this date the company will start to get serious about settling a contract like they claim they want to do but we all know it's just smoke and mirrors."

I'm not sure but perhaps it's you who needs to start considering different representation? It's quite obvious that the one you currently have is not having any affect against your management in securing you a new contract if you're pushing 3 years now with not a hint of an end in sight? 

It might be high time for YOU to open your eyes!!! :huh:

 

[WeAAsles]

 Brothers you 'll  can go on and on about the Pension/401k/Profit Sharing schemes with facts/myths/ lies forever. Whining , crying , and posting about how those of us who have been around since de-regulation got lied to/ hosed / robbed/  has no value moving forward with AAL Inc. The bottom line is WE must push the ASSOCIATION CB Committee's  for a EARLY OUT in JCBA that will recover some of our loss $$$ and Retire . Plus a modest $ increase for the Junior Members who will get their increases in future CBA 's . One statistic that will come out in JCB is that  aprox. 50%  of ALL !  below the wing Members are at or will be at retirement age during JCBN's and term of CBA . Time to step up and focus . 7 more days ? 

I don't agree with this. I don't think that active members should incur the costs for people to retire out of their CBA. Offering an early out is something that the company should extend "outside" of the contract as it can bring down their overall labor costs.

I'll be retiring in another 12 years and I don't want any active members to subsidise my early out just as much as that's not something I'm in interested in doing myself for another.

My guess is that you are close to retirement if you are talking about a "modest increase" for those of us who will remain working under the JCBA?

 

 

[Kev3188]

Any way we can get you on the negotiating committee ?

I should be so lucky!
 

So now they're "Hell bent for leather" huh? Great tune. I met the Mighty Priest back in DFW.

Totally OT, but I just went through another weight & balance class. One of the videos we watched had (now B757 pilot) Bruce Dickinson discussing the performance envelope of any given A/C, and they ways load planning affects it. Kept half-hoping Eddie would pop up at some point...
 

I don't agree with this. I don't think that active members should incur the costs for people to retire out of their CBA. Offering an early out is something that the company should extend "outside" of the contract as it can bring down their overall labor costs.

I hear ya, but if the NC can figure out how to leverage those lower costs into something additional for the membership, then why not?

 

[Zom JFK]

That will never happen. We all know any and all savings will go right into the executives pockets. That's why they fight so hard to get them.

 

[WeAAsles]

Totally OT, but I just went through another weight & balance class. One of the videos we watched had (now B757 pilot) Bruce Dickinson discussing the performance envelope of any given A/C, and they ways load planning affects it. Kept half-hoping Eddie would pop up at some point...

Nicko owns a Restaurant here in Coral Springs. He plays every year on the anniversary of it's opening. A bunch of local bands perform and then he plays. My roommates boyfriend is friends with his lawyer so we all had dinner together at the end of the night. Nice guy (Doesn't like shoes though)

The video below is of the show I was at. The band he put together killed it.
 

I hear ya, but if the NC can figure out how to leverage those lower costs into something additional for the membership, then why not?

When I hired on back in 95 there was a contract coming up that brought in Junior FSC's. The old timers were tugging on me like rabid dogs to get me to vote yes for it. Essentially screwing guys coming in only 5 months after I got in. All because there was a retirement package attached. Over the years thinking about it, it just left a bad taste in my mouth. Just not a fan of the divisiveness it caused that some people still talk about to this day.

I'm sure there are plenty on here who would have no problem selling out the unborn for a pocket full of coin. Just don't think that's what it should be about. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaFsTifAUs

 

[psa8979]

My #1 issue when filling out survey form for ASSOCIATION JCBA Committee  when they go to table with DP/AAL is a Early Out Package similar to what was negotiated with IAM D-141 F/S Brothers/Sisters at UA/CO . But ! more $$$ then what was agreed to by UA/CO Membership . Yes Brother WAA on 8/9/15 it will be 36 yrs. and 41 yrs. in Industry . I turn 60 3/30/17 . GOD willing and a dignified EOP i like many other's (50 % +) will retire . A Win Win for both AAL inc. and the ASSOCIATION Membership .