No to the Alliance!

[WeAAsles]

 
MetalMover, this character known as "weaasles" is clearly on the international's payroll.  Complete with a fabricated back story in an attempt to portray the character "weasles" as just another random baggage handler - based in MIA.  The chartacter just happens to be very opinionated, and seems to have an unusual interest in what AA's AMTs are up to.  It could happen? Yeah, not so much.  One could maybe believe a passing interest; however, weaasles is a relentless TWU cool aid drinking, zealot.  I hope the TWU is paying this individual well - with our dues money - considering all the time the character known as weaasles has spent on this board posting.

Let's see. On this board I've said my name, station, gate, hours and days off. I've even met one of you AMFA supporters in person on the field. If you want to since maybe you "need to know" send anyone you want over to my gate to check me out? Just make sure to check the schedule to make sure I'm not in the middle of a flight? Or I could also be sitting upstairs across from Juan Valdez on D24 enjoying my daily coffee.  

 

[bob@las-AA]

We can debate forever on what plan is funded and which is not, that is 
not the issue. The TWU, IAM & AA would not go forward with the association
unless they have a plan already in place to deal with huge difference in the
two pension plans. 
From day one I questioned TWU's reasoning for agreeing to the association, 
the reasons or excuses given on this forum made little sense either.
Why would the TWU allow the IAM to be in control the first two years knowing
the joint contract negotiations will be started in that time.
The IAM has claimed it has never moved its memberships company pension 
into the IAM pension, this maybe true but not from the lack or trying.
The TWU leadership will not sign a statement that our AA pension will never 
be part of the joint negotiations and a deal killer if it is.
We hear the GPGC will not allow our pension fund moved to the IAM fund 
because it is underfunded, now we hear it it 100% funded & the new guidelines 
make it easier to do so. (that is how I read it anyway).
 So what does this all mean? 
This is what I think, not what anyone has told me or I read it anywhere.
100% my own thoughts !
AA will come to the table with a better deal then we think for pay & benefits,
but the AA pension trust and liability goes to the IAM plan.
 The IAM will jump all over it and the TWU will spin the IAM plan enough to
make it sound like a great deal. "How can you turn down Delta+7 Brother?"
 Then in the next two years we will be under the TWU, and right about the 
time all this spending shows up on the bottom line, and true to their reputation
the TWU gives back all our gains. "They can do that Brother!!".
 Just one humble mechanics thoughts.

This will never happen. The TWU can't negotiate with something that doesn't belong to them. The pension at AA is just that, it belongs to AA and now the TWU. As far as wage and fringe, The max that AA will pay for all work groups is a number that they(i.e AA)will not tell us, hence the negotiation process. I feel that the wage bubble for organized labor at the airlines is about to burst.  

 

[2ndGENAMT]

The wage bubble burst a long time ago when the leadership structure of organized labor started to mirror a corporation.

 

[scorpion 2]

Guess you didnt get business training when you sucked off my tax dollars to go back to school.
 
 
 

 
 
http://c.hub.aa.com/...61_apfn_twu.pdf
 

 
 
 
 
 
 

http://www.pbgc.gov/...r-pensions.html

Amount underfunded if taken over by the iamnpf,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ZERO

 

[700UW]

Amount underfunded if taken over by the iamnpf,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ZERO

Wrong, a two billion dollar underfunding doesnt and wont go away.
 
Make up more crap to try and get cards signed.

 

[WeAAsles]

Amount underfunded if taken over by the iamnpf,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ZERO

 



Fear sells. Fear makes money. The countless companies and consultants in the business of protecting the fearful from whatever they may fear know it only too well. The more fear, the better the sales.

DANIEL GARDNER, The Science of Fear

http://www.amazon.com/The-Science-Fear-Culture-Manipulates/dp/0452295467



 


 

 

[FWAAA]

As of January 1, 2014, the TWU Plan’s funded status was at 100.73 percent of the target.

True, it's fully funded, using the assumed rate of return that matches AA's historical rates of return, but it's woefully underfunded if you assume a more pessimistic rate of return, like the PBCG requires (which 700UW has enthusiastically embraced). From the 2014 10-K:

As of December 31, 2014, the Company’s estimate of the long-term rate of return on plan assets was 8.00% ased on the target asset allocation. Expected returns on longer duration bonds are based on yields to maturity of the bonds held at year-end. Expected returns on other assets are based on a combination of long-term historical returns, actual returns on plan assets achieved over the last ten years, current and expected market conditions, and expected value to be generated through active management, currency overlay and securities lending programs. he Company’s annualized ten-year rate of return on plan assets as of December 31, 2014, was approximately 8%.

Even though AA has earned an average of 8% annually on its pension funds for the past 10 years, and has historically earned about 10% annually on its pension funds for several decades, the PBGC requires very pessimistic (and unreasonably low) rates of return, and the required 4.3% rate of return assumption guarantees that the plans will appear underfunded, especially to those who don't understand that the PBGC is peddling a position. The PBGC is selling something, as is the IAM and the TWU and the various apologists and supporters of those failure unions.

In 2012, Gotbaum was desperate to sell the nonsense that AA's plans were "too underfunded" for the PBGC to take on and that AA was far too rich a company to be allowed to unload its pensions on the PBGC, while UA and US were successful in terminating all of their pensions and DL was successful in terminating its pilot plan, the largest of its underfunded plans.

 

[WeAAsles]

In 2012, Gotbaum was desperate to sell the nonsense that AA's plans were "too underfunded" for the PBGC to take on and that AA was far too rich a company to be allowed to unload its pensions on the PBGC, while UA and US were successful in terminating all of their pensions and DL was successful in terminating its pilot plan, the largest of its underfunded plans.

FWAA I see that your contempt that the OLD AA was not able to pawn off their responsibilities to the PBGC remains fully intact.

I remember you also saying that those liabilities would need to be funded against any raises for employees and that our Unions (ALL of them) were stupid to fight against it.

You may have been correct if the old regime had been able to hold on to the ship and steer it into that iceberg known as the "Standalone Plan" Too bad not a soul in the world who mattered was going to let that idea even catch a whiff or air.

You have seen that both the Pilots and FA's have gotten pretty decent raises right (Yes with small cuts from the middle) and my guess is that in a few months we'll all be on here talking about what's coming our way as well? 

"5 Cornerstone Plan" Buried deep where it belongs.

 

[CMH_GSE]

True, it's fully funded, using the assumed rate of return that matches AA's historical rates of return, but it's woefully underfunded if you assume a more pessimistic rate of return, like the PBCG requires (which 700UW has enthusiastically embraced). From the 2014 10-K:Even though AA has earned an average of 8% annually on its pension funds for the past 10 years, and has historically earned about 10% annually on its pension funds for several decades, the PBGC requires very pessimistic (and unreasonably low) rates of return, and the required 4.3% rate of return assumption guarantees that the plans will appear underfunded, especially to those who don't understand that the PBGC is peddling a position. The PBGC is selling something, as is the IAM and the TWU and the various apologists and supporters of those failure unions.In 2012, Gotbaum was desperate to sell the nonsense that AA's plans were "too underfunded" for the PBGC to take on and that AA was far too rich a company to be allowed to unload its pensions on the PBGC, while UA and US were successful in terminating all of their pensions and DL was successful in terminating its pilot plan, the largest of its underfunded plans.

Good post FWAAA, and the best explanation to date of the letter that was sent to everyone on the pension fund.
So, from everything that's available to us, it's MORE reasonable to assume the pension fund is closer to fully funded than the other way.
700 and Weaasles assumption that it's underfunded is much more of a reach, by ANY measure.

And Weaasles, it's more than ironic that you talk about people selling fear.
The TWU has that market cornered and sold us plenty of fear to get contracts passed.

I will be totally honest here, I AM fearful of what will become of my pension and my company match 401k, With nothing in writing from both union Presidents , that basically means anything is on the table and we will only get to vote on whatever they put in the TA.
Why do I say that? Because that's the way they've always rolled in the past.
Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

 

[MetalMover]

 
 


Fear sells. Fear makes money. The countless companies and consultants in the business of protecting the fearful from whatever they may fear know it only too well. The more fear, the better the sales.

DANIEL GARDNER, The Science of Fear

http://www.amazon.com/The-Science-Fear-Culture-Manipulates/dp/0452295467



 


 
 

Kinda like what the TWU has been doing for the past 30 years. If you guys don't vote this contract in, there will be job losses, layoffs and outsourcing...lower your expectations, we can't harm the company....etc, etc etc...

 

[WeAAsles]

Good post FWAAA, and the best explanation to date of the letter that was sent to everyone on the pension fund.
So, from everything that's available to us, it's MORE reasonable to assume the pension fund is closer to fully funded than the other way.
700 and Weaasles assumption that it's underfunded is much more of a reach, by ANY measure.

On future liabilities for ALL the pensions currently in the pool, I would guess that it's somewhere between what AA had projected to be the shortfall and what the PBGC had projected during the BK?   

And Weaasles, it's more than ironic that you talk about people selling fear.
The TWU has that market cornered and sold us plenty of fear to get contracts passed.

Yes they did sell fear. I guess looking at all of the airlines that went out of business and the few that did survive and the hits their employees took was a good reason to be fearful in the minds of certain individuals in leadership roles? Yea I know, let's ignore all of that though right?

I will be totally honest here, I AM fearful of what will become of my pension and my company match 401k, With nothing in writing from both union Presidents , that basically means anything is on the table and we will only get to vote on whatever they put in the TA. Why do I say that? Because that's the way they've always rolled in the past. Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

Of course anything and everything are on the table that would not be excluded by law. Why anyone would want to put handcuffs on conversations is beyond me?

I know you guys will twist this but let's try a different take on that Boogy Man scenario you all continue to want to float. Our Presidents (Members who ultimately most live under the same contracts they bring back to us) sit in a room across from their IAM counterparts. Someone on the IAM side floats out the idea that they want to take our pension and merge it into there's. Our side says "Uh NO I don't think so" The IAM guys then say "Well we don't care we're going to take it anyway because our Grand Poobah is the tie breaker" Gary Petersen's a fairly big boy ain't he? I also know some of the Fleet President's and they're pretty big boy's as well. What do you think? A few busted eyes, maybe a jaw? Certainly at least one cracked scull and a few ambulances called to that meeting room. But wait I know, Our International reps are going to say "You do what we tell you!!!!"

De Plane, De plane. Welcome, welcome to Fantasy Island........ 

 

[Kev3188]

An even better what if:

Both sides agree that a push for as high as possible contributions and company matches to the memberships' 401k plans is the best path forward, as it is also the most directly empowering one. They then get to work figuring out where best to apply that "relief" in other areas of the JCBA.

Just a thought...

 

[WorldTraveler]

indeed, Kev. Your financial savvy is regularly seen in your posts.

the government maximums for contributions to a 401k are pretty high. A whole lot of DL people heavily contribute from their profit sharing payouts to their 401ks.

regardless, there is a lot to be said for controlling your own retirement and not allowing a company or anyone else to play games with your future.

and even when you leave a company, you can continue to build on that 401k or start your own IRA or a Roth IRA.

lots of options to secure one's future on one's own terms.

 

[WeAAsles]

An even better what if:

Both sides agree that a push for as high as possible contributions and company matches to the memberships' 401k plans is the best path forward, as it is also the most directly empowering one. They then get to work figuring out where best to apply that "relief" in other areas of the JCBA.

Just a thought...

Exactly the direction I would like to see. Nothing personal to the IAMPF but at the current shown funding rates for Fleet and being on Schedule B I think I should gain a much greater return under your scenario and hopefully being savvy in how I chose my investments.

Oh maybe I shouldn't have said that since according to some people on here I'm pushing to get into the IAMPF?

 

[CMH_GSE]

An even better what if:
Both sides agree that a push for as high as possible contributions and company matches to the memberships' 401k plans is the best path forward, as it is also the most directly empowering one. They then get to work figuring out where best to apply that "relief" in other areas of the JCBA.
Just a thought...

Any way we can get you on the negotiating committee ?
Totally agree on 401k being the vehicle that needs to be touted , but the IAM and TWU are hell bent for leather to make the IAMNPF relevant, the reason is simple, control.

If that's not true, then prove me wrong, put it writing that the 401k will be the focus, not the IAMNPF.