No to the Alliance!

[Bob Owens]

The fourth line was in exchange for AMFA letting WN send work to Aeroman in San Salvador.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113942431
 
That scenario could have happened a few weeks ago on a US Airways flight, if an observant employee at the airline hadn't made a discovery: Mechanics who had just repaired the plane at the Aeroman repair company in El Salvador had, in fact, crossed the wires on two engine indicators in the cockpit. NPR obtained internal US Airways documents that describe the incident, and a senior company executive confirmed it.

 

[700UW]

It took two chapter 11 filings and a contract abrogation for that to occur

Tell the whole story Bob, but you never do because it doesn't fit your narrative, and you have the nerve to call me a liar.

 

[WeAAsles]

I do feel that the legal claim was more excuse than anything. If it were Transit entering into an Association that their members didnt want I think that they would have squashed it much like they did Littles plans to roll us into the CWA.

Lets say the TWU decided that due to the fact they ousted the people responsible for it and there was never anytging of value exchanged that they were opting out of the Association, what would the IAM do? Sue? Ok, so what would the remedy be? To force TWU members into an Association they do not want? That flies in the face of the RLA which operates under the premise that the workers have chosen their representation. Enforcing the secret Association agreement would probably be less enfocable in court than enforcing the Agreent on the Pensions.

I have to laugh at the excuses put forth saying why we are being split between two very different Unions. They try and make it sound like they had our best interests at heart but pretty much everything they cite comes down to them not being able to work together and do what is right for the members. Preserving their dues flow took priority over everything. If it really mattered to the members that they stay in the Union they are in then how do they justify moving members from one union to the other because of what station they are in? Again, because its not about the members, the authors of this agreement didnt write this as representatives of the members, they wrote this as Owners of the members. We were bartered and traded like pork bellies or any other commodity.

The only thing I would really agree with is yes we should have had a voted on the Association before it was just decided on by the two groups. But the reality is Bob that that is not something you would have supported anyway. You I believe would have much more preferred we follow the "rules" and filed for SCS leaving the IAM chocking on our dust. However this was put together there is a bigger picture that I don't think you care about and Trumka said it "Unions should NOT fight Unions"

The alternative you want doesn't give a damn what our new Brothers and Sisters on the US side might prefer. And I also don't think you care if that animosity just continues on and on until all of those people are gone and rotting in the grave?

It's just my opinion but it seems like to me all you guys back on the East coast ever want to do is fight EVERYTHING? The CWA, IBT, IAM, TWU. Chit what other Unions do you guys hate? 

Unions fighting unions. Yea that's it. Can't get much smarter than that. Jeez Louise sometimes I do understand why so many things are put together without the members input or blessing. You guys would gnaw off your own dicks if it meant you thought you were getting out of a trap.

Oh and GO AMFA. Really seriously. Please. 

 

[blue collar]

It took two chapter 11 filings and a contract abrogation for that to occur
Tell the whole story Bob, but you never do because it doesn't fit your narrative, and you have the nerve to call me a liar.

Why don't you tell it like it is too? AMFA has brought more work in house than the IBT had, and the IAM before them. Your arguments always seem to hinge on how much in house maintenance is done, and while it is important, it's not the whole contract. Work rules and compensation are also extremely important, both of which the AMFA agreement is superior in.

 

[scorpion 2]

Dale can say what he likes, the fact is the Internationals control the process and they have a signed agreement and the Association will be "proposing" that those three title Groups in the earlier quote go into the IAMNPF unless both the IAM and TWU agree to abrogate their earlier agreement which I doubt would happen.
 
Dale also thinks that since Lombardo has told him that the local presidents will be the negotiators and that this will give them some sort of control over our pension trust issue. What he hasn't admitted is that this is just an appointment made by Lombardo and not a right to be a negotiator. Any of them can be replaced if they hold things up. Also he didn't comment on the fact that the iam will have an equal amount of votes and run the alliance for the first 2 years. You can't blame the iam guys if they want to keep their pension and want us to participate in the plan. Not saying this is what they want but if it is then look for a complete lock up in negotiations before they even start. This Delta + 7 could end up being a huge black cloud hanging over our heads when it comes to the pension and pension trust issue. 514 has told members that its against the law for our trust to be transferred but when they put words to pen it changes to we have no plans to move the trust. Like mentioned earlier its the fact that so much effort was put into writing the pension agreement but no effort was put forth to address the status of our frozen trust. If anyone thinks that this didn't come up in the back door secret talks when the alliance and pension agreements were written they are very naive. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Dale can say what he likes, the fact is the Internationals control the process and they have a signed agreement and the Association will be "proposing" that those three title Groups in the earlier quote go into the IAMNPF unless both the IAM and TWU agree to abrogate their earlier agreement which I doubt would happen.
 
Dale also thinks that since Lombardo has told him that the local presidents will be the negotiators and that this will give them some sort of control over our pension trust issue. What he hasn't admitted is that this is just an appointment made by Lombardo and not a right to be a negotiator. Any of them can be replaced if they hold things up.

So who's going to be replaced if every President is involved in the process. And except for one guy they all get along pretty well between both Fleet and Maintenance. Maybe you should try talking to some of those guys? It's not hard to get there phone numbers.


Also he didn't comment on the fact that the iam will have an equal amount of votes and run the alliance for the first 2 years. You can't blame the iam guys if they want to keep their pension and want us to participate in the plan. Not saying this is what they want but if it is then look for a complete lock up in negotiations before they even start.

They'll be no lockup. Everybody's cool with supporting the IAM guys keeping their plans.  Maybe you should try talking to some of those guys? It's not hard to get there phone numbers.
 
This Delta + 7 could end up being a huge black cloud hanging over our heads when it comes to the pension and pension trust issue. 514 has told members that its against the law for our trust to be transferred but when they put words to pen it changes to we have no plans to move the trust. Like mentioned earlier its the fact that so much effort was put into writing the pension agreement but no effort was put forth to address the status of our frozen trust. If anyone thinks that this didn't come up in the back door secret talks when the alliance and pension agreements were written they are very naive. 

How was it so much effort? It's 4 paragraphs on page 61 and 62. And AA had just froze our pensions when the association was put together. Of course our guys will ask for the Pension to be unfrozen. Got about a snowballs chance in hell of it happening though IMO. Oh and read the part about if the TWU and the New American Airlines do not come to an agreement.

(What if) Nothing wrong with asking. They requested participation in the IAMPF (moving forward) and continuation of the 5.5% match and secured it? Would you be good with that? Yes I doubt it but again nothing wrong with asking.

http://www.twu.org/Portals/0/TWU-IAM-Joint-Council.pdf

 

[1AA]

It took two chapter 11 filings and a contract abrogation for that to occur
Tell the whole story Bob, but you never do because it doesn't fit your narrative, and you have the nerve to call me a liar.

For someone who has no fight in this you sure are making a pest out of yourself. Attacking credible union officers is all you can do. What agenda do you have by spewing your foolishness on these forums that have no interest on your part? You just attack one issue after another. Bob Owens, AMFA, SWA, pensions and so on. All we read from you is how great the all mighty IAM is and their 105% funded pension. We hear how your involved in everything union on the IAM side in the past. Give it up the past is gone just like our double time, 6 weeks vacation, penalty hour and so in. Your a has been. This is 2015. You have no fight in this anymore. We do. It's our fight and future. It's time for your walk, play nice in the sandbox with the other little boys. You could put me on ignore but you won't because you can't help yourself.

 

[Bob Owens]

The only thing I would really agree with is yes we should have had a voted on the Association before it was just decided on by the two groups. But the reality is Bob that that is not something you would have supported anyway. You I believe would have much more preferred we follow the "rules" and filed for SCS leaving the IAM chocking on our dust. However this was put together there is a bigger picture that I don't think you care about and Trumka said it "Unions should NOT fight Unions"

The alternative you want doesn't give a damn what our new Brothers and Sisters on the US side might prefer. And I also don't think you care if that animosity just continues on and on until all of those people are gone and rotting in the grave?

It's just my opinion but it seems like to me all you guys back on the East coast ever want to do is fight EVERYTHING? The CWA, IBT, IAM, TWU. Chit what other Unions do you guys hate? 

Unions fighting unions. Yea that's it. Can't get much smarter than that. Jeez Louise sometimes I do understand why so many things are put together without the members input or blessing. You guys would gnaw off your own dicks if it meant you thought you were getting out of a trap.

Oh and GO AMFA. Really seriously. Please. 

 
The fact is that the Pilots and FAs both moved on with a single union, the way it should be and they did it without a fight of Unions fighting Unions.
 
 
Every Union member out there is told to put aside his individual self interest and instead work as a collective single union to the benefit of all, but then the Union fails to practice what they preach, and on top of that swap members like commodities to preserve their dues base. Let the US guys who want it keep their IAMNPF pension and they could care less if they keep the IAM itself and if the IAM can arrange for us to be in the IAMNPF then they can arrange for those guys, and the TWA guys to remain in it. You know thats the truth, the Union is a means to an end, not the means itself and that end is a better standard of living. If remaining in the IAM was so important then how do you justify the fact that through no choice of their own IAM members in stations that will be TWU are being forced to leave? Your excuses don't match the facts.  

 

[Bob Owens]

Dale can say what he likes, the fact is the Internationals control the process and they have a signed agreement and the Association will be "proposing" that those three title Groups in the earlier quote go into the IAMNPF unless both the IAM and TWU agree to abrogate their earlier agreement which I doubt would happen.
 
Dale also thinks that since Lombardo has told him that the local presidents will be the negotiators and that this will give them some sort of control over our pension trust issue. What he hasn't admitted is that this is just an appointment made by Lombardo and not a right to be a negotiator. Any of them can be replaced if they hold things up. Also he didn't comment on the fact that the iam will have an equal amount of votes and run the alliance for the first 2 years. You can't blame the iam guys if they want to keep their pension and want us to participate in the plan. Not saying this is what they want but if it is then look for a complete lock up in negotiations before they even start. This Delta + 7 could end up being a huge black cloud hanging over our heads when it comes to the pension and pension trust issue. 514 has told members that its against the law for our trust to be transferred but when they put words to pen it changes to we have no plans to move the trust. Like mentioned earlier its the fact that so much effort was put into writing the pension agreement but no effort was put forth to address the status of our frozen trust. If anyone thinks that this didn't come up in the back door secret talks when the alliance and pension agreements were written they are very naive. 

The deal is simple, and its the same at UAL and any other carrier where the Locals are not party to the agreement. In these cases the  Local leaders are there for one reason only, to make sure the deal gets passed by the membership. The Internationals know if the Local Leaders don't endorse the deals that the members will never ratify them, so they drag these guys away from their families, and drag out talks for years until they have a deal that they can get the Local leaders will endorse. Thats whats going on at UAL right now, and thats what went on during our negotiations. The company even admitted that Local Leaders only take part in "low level negotiations".  That doesn't mean that Dale and the others are powerless, again, they have the ability to kill any deal that gets cut, so the process is to wear them down by stretching these talks which should at best take a few weeks, into years and years, years where the members live under pay freezes. How people think deals get cut and how they actually get cut are two different things. 

 

[WeAAsles]

 
The fact is that the Pilots and FAs both moved on with a single union, the way it should be and they did it without a fight of Unions fighting Unions.


Correct but the IAM made it's intention very clear that they were not going to just go gently into that goodnight when they initiated a raid on our members. Albeit it was more of a small feeler raid but I'm sure they would have put on the war paint if this agreement hadn't been reached. My guess was the TWA situation was never too far in the back of their minds.
 
 
Every Union member out there is told to put aside his individual self interest and instead work as a collective single union to the benefit of all, but then the Union fails to practice what they preach, and on top of that swap members like commodities to preserve their dues base. Let the US guys who want it keep their IAMNPF pension and they could care less if they keep the IAM itself and if the IAM can arrange for us to be in the IAMNPF then they can arrange for those guys, and the TWA guys to remain in it. You know thats the truth, the Union is a means to an end, not the means itself and that end is a better standard of living. If remaining in the IAM was so important then how do you justify the fact that through no choice of their own IAM members in stations that will be TWU are being forced to leave? Your excuses don't match the facts.


I'm absolutely not a fan of the Association agreement as written Bob. I've clearly stated that before. Not a fan of the "Horse Trading" or the idea that somewhere down the road one side will owe the other side bodies (Dues Money) So no excuses. You know which side has continued to be adamant about not making any changes, and you know which side at least tried. Legally there's nothing either of us can do about that even if we want to post our displeasure on here until the cows come home.  

 

[toroshark]

"Now we have people saying that nothing is going to happen to our Pensions at AA, but nothing from the International, just a letter from a Local President who seems to be unaware that there is already an agreement between TWU and the IAM on what they want to do with the pension"
This comment made by you to me is very clear that you are not speaking of the Association agreement or a proposal for our inclusion into the IAMPF.
What you have alluded to is that you have first hand knowledge that something nefarious is at play here and there are "written" intentions of a plot against OUR currently frozen Pensions? 
If that is not the case you should be more careful in the future on how you word things. Personally I find you to be a highly capable wordsmith and have to doubt that what you wrote was meant to cause any confusion?

Maybe the confusion is that either you can't read and comprehend very well or that you are just a TWU Intl leech spinning information to dupe your so-called brothers into this sham of a association.

 

[WeAAsles]

Maybe the confusion is that either you can't read and comprehend very well or that you are just a TWU Intl leech spinning information to dupe your so-called brothers into this sham of a association.

Who the hell is trying to dupe you? Do whatever makes you happy. Send in little yellow cards till you're laying in Hospice with the IV drip coming out of your arm for all I care. Leave money in your will for someone to come on here and type and carry on your legacy if that's what floats your boat?

I really could care less man. It's your own personal show.

 

[saywhat]

IMO, you AMFA supporters on this thread seem to be anti-Union. Your wish for AMFA is a cover for your hate for Unions. If I'm correct, quit and get a non Union job as a mechanic and see where that gets you. Just saying, what?

 

[99Roadstar]

hmmmm,  the non union jobs- better pay, profit sharing, double time, more holidays……………………..hmmmm…….just saying!

 

[WeAAsles]

hmmmm,  the non union jobs- better pay, profit sharing, double time, more holidays……………………..hmmmm…….just saying!

Insane Medical and prescription costs. At will work rules and employment, less jobs...........................hmmmm.......just saying!