No to the Alliance!

[700UW]

You know Denial isnt a river in Egypt
 
You are a liar.
 
Propose doesnt mean you are going to be forced into the IAMNPF.
 
You are a feal monger, closet AMFA supporter, and you know thats why you were removed from office.
 
How is Thomas Paine doing these days?

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
Perhaps you have not seen the letter titled "TWU and IAM Joint Agreement on Pensions" dated May 9 2013 signed by Gless and Pantoja? 
It clearly states;
 NOW THEREFORE, TWU and IAM agree to propose a defined benefit pension with the IAMNPF,,,,,,
 
Its on our website. All our members in Local 591 have access to the letter and so does your President, maybe you should ask him about it.
 
If you want send me an Email and I will send you a copy. Its too big for me to attach here. 
 
 

"Now we have people saying that nothing is going to happen to our Pensions at AA, but nothing from the International, just a letter from a Local President who seems to be unaware that there is already an agreement between TWU and the IAM on what they want to do with the pension"

This comment made by you to me is very clear that you are not speaking of the Association agreement or a proposal for our inclusion into the IAMPF.

What you have alluded to is that you have first hand knowledge that something nefarious is at play here and there are "written" intentions of a plot against OUR currently frozen Pensions? 

If that is not the case you should be more careful in the future on how you word things. Personally I find you to be a highly capable wordsmith and have to doubt that what you wrote was meant to cause any confusion?

 

[Bob Owens]

"Now we have people saying that nothing is going to happen to our Pensions at AA, but nothing from the International, just a letter from a Local President who seems to be unaware that there is already an agreement between TWU and the IAM on what they want to do with the pension"

This comment made by you to me is very clear that you are not speaking of the Association agreement or a proposal for our inclusion into the IAMPF.

What you have alluded to is that you have first hand knowledge that something nefarious is at play here and there are "written" intentions of a plot against OUR currently frozen Pensions? 

If that is not the case you should be more careful in the future on how you word things. Personally I find you to be a highly capable wordsmith and have to doubt that what you wrote was meant to cause any confusion?

Sorry, didn't realize you were so easily confused. The TWU and IAM already have a written and signed agreement as far as what they want to do with the pensions. Like I said, send me an email and I will send it to you. Dale can say what he likes, the fact is the Internationals control the process and they have a signed agreement and the Association will be proposing that those three title Groups in the earlier quote go into the IAMNPF unless both the IAM and TWU agree to abrogate their earlier agreement which I doubt would happen. This letter is just as binding as the Association agreement itself. Lets face it, Lombardo has said on several occasions that he would like to get out of the Association but they consulted legal and legal said they cant. The same will apply to this letter. Its a done deal, if we end up in the Association the Association will make getting us into the IAMNPF a priority unless both Union Intenationals agree to not seek that. So, I will correct my earlier statement, even if Lombardo came out with a letter stating that they will abrogate that letter and not go after our AA pension or force us into the IAMNPF its still means nothing unless the letter is signed by the IAM. 
 
The letter is open ended as it does not specify whether they intend for this to be from DOS forward or if they intend to seek to have our pensions transferred from the AA single employer to the IAMNPF. I've been pretty clear and I have stated that in my opinion they will seek to transfer and why. Can I prove it? No, just as I couldn't prove that the company would try and keep our money from pre-funding due to the 1114 language the International agreed to but here we are three years later and still no money. My concern is that the liability of the plan would drop dramatically due to the IAMs much higher penalty for early retirement, much higher retirement age and severe restrictions on employment after retirement. That huge sum of money would be used to fund pay improvements and equalize benefits between the two agreements with just enough support to overcome resistance to losing our single employer Pension plan in exchange for the multi-employer plan. Again, read the small print on the bottom of this post. My opinion, and despite those who claim otherwise, my concerns have been validated more often than not. 

 

[AANOTOK]

Bob, in the letter (agreement) you mention, does it say ANYTHING about our frozen AA pension, much less it being taken over by the IAMNPF. Or is that your interpretation?

 

[scorpion 2]

So then why was he removed from office?
I know why, do you?

You will do or say anything to keep your foot in the door do you get in your neighbors business as well?  That's old old old news.  Back then you couldn't question or criticize the union without being chastised and labeled an AMFA guy.    Sonny Hall was all about Sonny and used the union as a tool to better himself before the memberships well being. He was a company smoosher that would do anything to protect his money machine. A lot of eyes were opened to the ways of industrial unionism by the actions of Bob and Chuck. You won't get much support going down that road.  Surely you can find something better to do in your golden years besides inject stone age union antics in other folks business. There is a blue pill that can help you with your problem.  

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Like I said, send me an email and I will send it to you. 

Bob, in the letter (agreement) you mention, does it say ANYTHING about our frozen AA pension, much less it being taken over by the IAMNPF. Or is that your interpretation?

Or he could send it to you and you could read it first hand.
 

You will do or say anything to keep your foot in the door do you get in your neighbors business as well?  That's old old old news.  Back then you couldn't question or criticize the union without being chastised and labeled an AMFA guy.    Sonny Hall was all about Sonny and used the union as a tool to better himself before the memberships well being. He was a company smoosher that would do anything to protect his money machine. A lot of eyes were opened to the ways of industrial unionism by the actions of Bob and Chuck. You won't get much support going down that road.  Surely you can find something better to do in your golden years besides inject stone age union antics in other folks business. There is a blue pill that can help you with your problem.  

Man 700UW, this guy has your number.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, in the letter (agreement) you mention, does it say ANYTHING about our frozen AA pension, much less it being taken over by the IAMNPF. Or is that your interpretation?

No it says nothing about our frozen Pension, that in itself is a concern. Again, I've been pretty clear in stating my concerns and why. When language is omitted we usually end up getting burned. 
 
I would rather that we sought a 401k Contribution like the pilots have, 17%,or at the very least somewhere between the Pilots and Flight attendants who get as much as 9%. 
 
Under the IAM plan if I stay till 65 my pension from the IAMNPF would only be around $800 a month. And I cant work after retirement. I lost nearly $2000 a month due to the freeze. Roughly $40,000 of my pay would be sent to the IAMNPF over the next ten years to pay for that addition $800/month and if I die my estate gets nothing. The average male expectancy in the US is now 75.96 years. I'm overweight so probably less. So over my lifetime by contributing $40,000 to the IAMNPF I could expect to see around $96000 paid out over 10 years, so my contributions just slightly double if I live to 75. Now lets compare that to getting a contribution at the same rate as the pilots, I would expect with half the A&P schools in the country closed and people transferring out of NY faster than they can hire them to continue to see 20% OT and be earning roughly $100,000 a year. Thats $17000 a year from the company that I get when and how I need, or, without factoring in interest $170,000 by the time I turn 65. Even if we just settled for what the Flight Attendants got ($90,000), it would be as much as I could expect over my lifetime from the IAMNPF. Plus we lose the handcuffs, to both the IAM and AA. 
 
http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/life-expectancy-male

 

[WeAAsles]

Sorry, didn't realize you were so easily confused.

Not confused in the slightest. It was how YOU worded it.


The TWU and IAM already have a written and signed agreement as far as what they want to do with the pensions. Like I said, send me an email and I will send it to you.

If you're talking about the Association documents I have them and have read them multiple times. I've also sought clarity on some areas of those agreements and have had no problem getting that information.

Dale can say what he likes, the fact is the Internationals control the process and they have a signed agreement and the Association will be "proposing" that those three title Groups in the earlier quote go into the IAMNPF unless both the IAM and TWU agree to abrogate their earlier agreement which I doubt would happen.

I doubt that as well.

This letter is just as binding as the Association agreement itself. Lets face it, Lombardo has said on several occasions that he would like to get out of the Association but they consulted legal and legal said they cant. The same will apply to this letter. Its a done deal, if we end up in the Association the Association will make getting us into the IAMNPF a priority unless both Union Intenationals agree to not seek that. So, I will correct my earlier statement, even if Lombardo came out with a letter stating that they will abrogate that letter and not go after our AA pension or force us into the IAMNPF its still means nothing unless the letter is signed by the IAM. 
 
The letter is open ended as it does not specify whether they intend for this to be from DOS forward or if they intend to seek to have our pensions transferred from the AA single employer to the IAMNPF. I've been pretty clear and I have stated that in my opinion they will seek to transfer and why. Can I prove it? No, just as I couldn't prove that the company would try and keep our money from pre-funding due to the 1114 language the International agreed to but here we are three years later and still no money. My concern is that the liability of the plan would drop dramatically due to the IAMs much higher penalty for early retirement, much higher retirement age and severe restrictions on employment after retirement. That huge sum of money would be used to fund pay improvements and equalize benefits between the two agreements with just enough support to overcome resistance to losing our single employer Pension plan in exchange for the multi-employer plan. Again, read the small print on the bottom of this post. My opinion, and despite those who claim otherwise, my concerns have been validated more often than not. 


Your "opinions" are noted and IF they wound up occurring as I've stated before you would have a supporter against that. But my opinion is that the scenario of our Frozen Pension being "proposed" will not be on the table. The other scenario you bring forward on the other hand? BUT as you also stated there are currently 2500 (Maybe just Mechanics) currently not putting in the FULL match potential. IF the Company agreed to replace the 401k match to a fixed cost IAMPF contribution, which item would cost the company more? I'm sure that they have already done both their short term and long term projections for those financials.

 

[WeAAsles]

No it says nothing about our frozen Pension, that in itself is a concern. Again, I've been pretty clear in stating my concerns and why. When language is omitted we usually end up getting burned.

What I don't like is that you don't have any faith in all of the Local Presidents who will be a part of that discussion (Possibly) to both argue and fight back against that thought of yours. You need to get out of NY once in awhile.
 
I would rather that we sought a 401k Contribution like the pilots have, 17%,or at the very least somewhere between the Pilots and Flight attendants who get as much as 9%.

So would I personally.  But that's because I do maximize my contributions.
 
Under the IAM plan if I stay till 65 my pension from the IAMNPF would only be around $800 a month. And I cant work after retirement. I lost nearly $2000 a month due to the freeze. Roughly $40,000 of my pay would be sent to the IAMNPF over the next ten years to pay for that addition $800/month and if I die my estate gets nothing. The average male expectancy in the US is now 75.96 years. I'm overweight so probably less. So over my lifetime by contributing $40,000 to the IAMNPF I could expect to see around $96000 paid out over 10 years, so my contributions just slightly double if I live to 75. Now lets compare that to getting a contribution at the same rate as the pilots, I would expect with half the A&P schools in the country closed and people transferring out of NY faster than they can hire them to continue to see 20% OT and be earning roughly $100,000 a year. Thats $17000 a year from the company that I get when and how I need, or, without factoring in interest $170,000 by the time I turn 65. Even if we just settled for what the Flight Attendants got ($90,000), it would be as much as I could expect over my lifetime from the IAMNPF. Plus we lose the handcuffs, to both the IAM and AA. 

Pretty good synopsis. Now go lose some weight so you can stick around for awhile. A good South Florida retirement is waiting for you. Live it healthy. B) 
 
http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/life-expectancy-male

 

[767 mechanic]

"Now we have people saying that nothing is going to happen to our Pensions at AA, but nothing from the International, just a letter from a Local President who seems to be unaware that there is already an agreement between TWU and the IAM on what they want to do with the pension"

This comment made by you to me is very clear that you are not speaking of the Association agreement or a proposal for our inclusion into the IAMPF.

What you have alluded to is that you have first hand knowledge that something nefarious is at play here and there are "written" intentions of a plot against OUR currently frozen Pensions? 

If that is not the case you should be more careful in the future on how you word things. Personally I find you to be a highly capable wordsmith and have to doubt that what you wrote was meant to cause any confusion?
[/quote)

Nefarious I think you hit the nail on the head. This association was created by three crooks and the membership had no knowledge of it until after it was a done deal. Although some people here think highly of Lombardo,I believe that he is just as crooked as jim little. If he was so against this association he could have stopped it before it got started. Lombardo claims that he didn't know anything about this association and that it was jim littles doing. I call bullshit. If he didn't know anything he is either incompetent or a self serving coward by not doing anything about it. He still has options to get out of this association he just chooses not to use them.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
Nefarious I think you hit the nail on the head. This association was created by three crooks and the membership had no knowledge of it until after it was a done deal. Although some people here think highly of Lombardo,I believe that he is just as crooked as jim little. If he was so against this association he could have stopped it before it got started. Lombardo claims that he didn't know anything about this association and that it was jim littles doing. I call bullshit. If he didn't know anything he is either incompetent or a self serving coward by not doing anything about it. He still has options to get out of this association he just chooses not to use them.

So basically overthrowing who I'm sure you think was the Emperor and running against and defeating his hand picked successors and then removing many of those who supported that Emperor leads you still to believe he did nothing? Think about that. 

And if he wasn't in charge (President) when the agreement was written how could he have prevented it? Joe Biden is not the POTUS, Barrack Obama is. And if you read further back even Bob admitted that they tried to get out of it but that "Legal" option doesn't exist.

So whether popular on not from individuals on both sides of the family, we're walking down that aisle. And if you try to run Daddy is going to blow your head clean off with that shotgun he's holding in the back of the church.   

 

[swamt]

Four lines for 700 planes.
 
How many lines does AA for its 900 or so planes?
 
US does five in-house for around 300 planes.

You know better 700.  We,ve been thru this already, your just trying to keep the fear in the air for another 14 days or so, and I will not let you spread lies or mis-truths about AMFA or SWA.  The 4 Heavy Lines are located in Dallas.  2 of these lines (as you already know, but I will play your little game with you AGAIN) were brought in by AMFA after they were certified by the NMB.  Aside from these 4 lines we have several other lines of mix maint. of all sorts in Dallas as well as in other cities and states. You keep screaming that we have 700 airplanes and we don't yet.  We are still below the 700 threshold.
Now using the other airlines in your comparo, which of the 3 has never had a lay-off or forced reductions in the mechanic related field?   How many times has AA reduced jobs, had lay-offs, forced mechanics to other cities, paycuts, contracts gutted, ect...?
Some very key items that you did not bring up and was actually smart of you not to, all the mentions about AMFA in the May 1 letter put out by the TWU was all 100% lies and made up propaganda to try and get the membership to back down from signing and sending in cards.  The fact is AMFA has done better than any other union here at bringing maint in house period. Which is a direct reverse action from what is happening elsewhere.  
 

A little late Dale! Yellow cards are flying out of every shop in Tulsa!

I too hope you are correct, get it done guys this will be the last chance.
 

Four lines of what?
 
Heavy Maintenance?
 
AA has Heavy " C " Checks at the moment I believe it is 2 in TUL. 
 
2 Light " C " 's and 1 drop in and a Heavy Repair ( non C Check )
 
SWAMT correct me if I am wrong, but SWA  contractually awards  Heavy Check Lines by the number of aircraft in the fleet?

Yes Heavy Maintenance.
We too have several lines of light and heavy "C" checks.
Not 100% true on the contractual awards.  AMFA added the language to get the 4th line brought in-house at I think 620 number of aircraft.  

 

[Bob Owens]

I do feel that the legal claim was more excuse than anything. If it were Transit entering into an Association that their members didnt want I think that they would have squashed it much like they did Littles plans to roll us into the CWA.

Lets say the TWU decided that due to the fact they ousted the people responsible for it and there was never anytging of value exchanged that they were opting out of the Association, what would the IAM do? Sue? Ok, so what would the remedy be? To force TWU members into an Association they do not want? That flies in the face of the RLA which operates under the premise that the workers have chosen their representation. Enforcing the secret Association agreement would probably be less enfocable in court than enforcing the Agreent on the Pensions.

I have to laugh at the excuses put forth saying why we are being split between two very different Unions. They try and make it sound like they had our best interests at heart but pretty much everything they cite comes down to them not being able to work together and do what is right for the members. Preserving their dues flow took priority over everything. If it really mattered to the members that they stay in the Union they are in then how do they justify moving members from one union to the other because of what station they are in? Again, because its not about the members, the authors of this agreement didnt write this as representatives of the members, they wrote this as Owners of the members. We were bartered and traded like pork bellies or any other commodity.

 

[swamt]

I do feel that the legal claim was more excuse than anything. If it were Transit entering into an Association that their members didnt want I think that they would have squashed it much like they did Littles plans to roll us into the CWA.

Lets say the TWU decided that due to the fact they ousted the people responsible for it and there was never anytging of value exchanged that they were opting out of the Association, what would the IAM do? Sue? Ok, so what would the remedy be? To force TWU members into an Association they do not want? That flies in the face of the RLA which operates under the premise that the workers have chosen their representation. Enforcing the secret Association agreement would probably be less enfocable in court than enforcing the Agreent on the Pensions.

I have to laugh at the excuses put forth saying why we are being split between two very different Unions. They try and make it sound like they had our best interests at heart but pretty much everything they cite comes down to them not being able to work together and do what is right for the members. Preserving their dues flow took priority over everything. If it really mattered to the members that they stay in the Union they are in then how do they justify moving members from one union to the other because of what station they are in? Again, because its not about the members, the authors of this agreement didnt write this as representatives of the members, they wrote this as Owners of the members. We were bartered and traded like pork bellies or any other commodity.

100% correct...

 

[700UW]

The fourth line was in exchange for AMFA letting WN send work to Aeroman in San Salvador.