No more fighting from the East or the West...

[AWA320]

I'm really getting tired of trying to convince the west how much our date of hire means to us here on the money making side on the east so I'll say it again so I'll feel better. If we were the same age group, I would have no problem with the Nic award. I have yet to hear or read a post explaining to me what advantageous positions they will have when our retirements occur. The west will never acknowledge it. Thats what we are fighting for. It will never happen so y'all can go your way and we will go ours capturing our expectations on both sides. Thats fair, since we were both out of business anyway.

You all need to comply with the EC resolutions so we can get these contracts done and all live in peace.

Enough said....

wopr21

You don't have too!! We don't have DOH today in the policy there are no do overs and no matter how much you try to get out of your agreement you won't!! Spending the pilots hard earned money on a lost cause is stupid. You see we aren't playing don't you?? You see we moved this to the federal courts didn't you??? Come on bro do you have to be hit by a truck before you start to get it?? This is going to turn out bad for the east pilots. Don't say you were not warned...

 

[Mr Furlough]

You don't have too!! We don't have DOH today in the policy there are no do overs and no matter how much you try to get out of your agreement you won't!! Spending the pilots hard earned money on a lost cause is stupid. You see we aren't playing don't you?? You see we moved this to the federal courts didn't you??? Come on bro do you have to be hit by a truck before you start to get it?? This is going to turn out bad for the east pilots. Don't say you were not warned...

Actually, should we go down this path it will be bad for all pilots. We will simply be the first to feel the devistating results of this warped policy. ALPA will be second. And everyone involved in future mergers will be in line.

Nothing good will come of this for anyone-well, except management and shareholders of course.

 

[wopr21]

You don't have too!! We don't have DOH today in the policy there are no do overs and no matter how much you try to get out of your agreement you won't!! Spending the pilots hard earned money on a lost cause is stupid. You see we aren't playing don't you?? You see we moved this to the federal courts didn't you??? Come on bro do you have to be hit by a truck before you start to get it?? This is going to turn out bad for the east pilots. Don't say you were not warned...

Again my point has been proven. Can you please tell me where you will be sitting in 7 years? I'm sure you know the latest EC resolutions. The EC has spoken. They acknowledge there is a problem, do you? I don't want to play in your yard, so stay out of mine.

I've been hit by many trucks in my long career.

We will never give or surrender our DOH to anyone.

I have never seen this pilot group more united about an issue in my long career.

wopr21

 

[767jetz]

The E pilot was in line for an upgrade (res to lineholder, r seat to l, bigger equipment, etc. ) because it was an E pilot that retired (running 4 to 1 E vs W) that allowed the position to be available. Giving some, most, or all of the the W pilots an opportunity to bid on it before the E pilot IS a windfall, at the other's expense. That's the crux of the problem from the E side, regardless of where you ended up on the combined list, especially an airline not growing, as has occurred, and is estimated to be that way, going forward by management.

If that were really the crux of the problem then the solution lies in the joint contract, where the West said there could be compromise. The west has indicated that there could be limited fences and vehicles that protect some of the east attrition, (ie: the attrition that actually comes form the left seat, and not the ones coming from the furloughed ranks or the right seat.), but will not entertain reordering the list.

The problem is that once you get through all the ranker, the East is not interested in solutions to the attrition issue. The East is only interested in DOH, which is something they were never entitled to in the first place. They weren't entitled to it in 2000, nor did they want fences, when they were salivating over UA's widebody flying. They aren't entitled to it now with this integration. They are not entitled to it in the next round of consolidation.

If the attrition is truly the crux of the problem as you say, then I would suggest contacting your MEC and telling them to stop stalling, and work within confines of the JNC to remedy the attrition issue and negotiate significant raises for all the East, and stop holding everyone hostage over DOH.

 

[supercruiser]

If that were really the crux of the problem then the solution lies in the joint contract, where the West said there could be compromise. The west has indicated that there could be limited fences and vehicles that protect some of the east attrition, (ie: the attrition that actually comes form the left seat, and not the ones coming from the furloughed ranks or the right seat.), but will not entertain reordering the list.

That's always been the crux of the problem. The Trump Shuttle merger by the same arbitrator wasn't doh, and you didn't see this kind of rancor. The arbitrator should have dealt with this with conditions and restrictions in this merger, but he didn't. If he had, there would have been some grumbling from both sides, but it would have been accepted. Why should the W side capture attrition that occurs from the R seat? Many fo's can hold capt if they choose, but don't for whatever reason. That idea would never fly.

Everyone knew that their equivalent counterpart was way junior and younger to them. There is no other airline besides US Airways that has been through more mergers and arbitrations in modern times. We went into this with our eyes wide open and our MEC made no promises or lied to us as some yo yo's have indicated. We just expected the arbitrator to do his job correctly, and if he had, you wouldn't be seeing this. that's the bottom line. Now both sides have their hardened position, but I don't see any way of agreeing to a joint contract with the current award unmodified. And I don't see any indications yet that modifications will occur. You aren't going to see the E side fall on a sword, because other employee groups don't like it.

As far as the UAL merger, please get over it. That one would have gone to arbitration too, but UAL was insisting on a prenuptial, just like the last time. So some chest beating by both sides took place here...big deal. UAL has always been afraid of ALPA merger policy, even though they were the ones instrumental in making the pos that it is today. I'd love to see that come back to bite them in a Alaska merger or something.

 

[LCC_#1]

Its amazing that the only ones that REALLY don't get along are the pilots and the tide of pure hate and anger from certain pilots...some from east, west. and a certian noisy UAUA pilot. The other work groups are keenly aware that it isn't the basic employee of either side that we hate. It is upper management. It just so happens that they are HQ in the Tempe, which came from the old AWA. It's as simple as that. I would feel the same way if the HQ was in Arlington, VA.

 

[700UW]

The IAM goes by DOH in mergers, a process called dovetailing, as does the AFA.

ALPA will eat their own if it lines their wallets.

 

[LCC_#1]

The only thing that irritates me is the "We saved you" CRAP. Hit the link below and stroll down to 2004. This PROVES what many of us have said over and over. We saved each other. I'm sure somebody will distort the OBVIOUS facts that came right out of the Tempe HQ's.


US Airways Chronology

 

[Tiger 1050]

"Well seniority does not work like that in our case."

Yes it does. It's that way for everyone in aviation. You don't get to leapfrog.

Are you saying that because you have (?) years with US that you could and should be able to bump an active pilot at another airline!? Nobody leapfrogged anyone. You are furloughed! You did not bring a seat with you to the merger!!! You brought nothing!!!

"What you believe you are entitled to is called a DOH integration. You should know by now that this policy ceased to exist sometime back in 1991."

I'm not entitled to anything beyond our current system. Neither are you. DOH was removed from the merger language, but the seniority system is alive and well in aviation. The purpose of having a seniority system is to disallow exactly what Nicolau has fowled up.

If you can't understand that your seniority entitles you to exactly nothing at another airline then we are just beating or head against the wall with this one...



"Maybe you guys should petition ALPA to let you take a flying position from a DAL guy or a UAL guy or a NWA guy."

And that would be less criminal than what the AWA pilots are attempting to get away with the U pilots.

How exactly is it more criminal than the example I just used? Please tell me. I really want to know what it is the AWA pilot have done to you...


"Hopefully I have provided a little insight. But then, you couldn't have that because that would mean the student has taught the teacher in your mind. Way too pointy for your ego it would seem...
Good day little children..."

Actually, it's not my ego that gets bruised here. My frustration stems from people with little years in this business attempting to tell me how it is. I'll listen and consider anything from anyone. But when you push a bad idea simply because you want to cash in on a bad move expect to hear from all of us. Further, it wouldn't hurt your side a bit to consider the damages this award does to our profession. Merger upon mergers are ahead in your career. You work in an industry that is in a stagnant to shrinking business plan. All relative seniority (which appears no where in ALPA merger policy) does is assure that those in the bottom half of the seniority list will remain there. After you accrue decades yanking gear wouldn't you just love to learn that a apprentice member is entitled to your upgrade?

Well I think it is. Tell me why does it take "years" to understand how a simple seniority system works?

Bad idea? I believe you are upset and fail to see the validity in my point because you have been personally harmed. Harmed by your previous management teams. Not me. Not my fellow AWA pilots.

Damages!? What damages? The damages that were created when the AWA MC joined your MC to come up with a fair integration? The damages that were created when we agreed (reluctantly) to enter into binding arbitration? I believe our MEC and our Merger Committee have handle all of this with the utmost integrity and professionalism. You and your leadership have failed to rise to that same level. You guys got your hat handed to you by a small insignificant carrier named America West and you can't handle the fact that someone on the outside could see what we see regarding this integration.

I'll say it again. You brought exactly what to this merger? If you were furloughed then that is what you should be entitled to. If you were a narrowbody F/O, then that is exactly what you should be entitled to. Everyone on this list is approximately where they were on May 18th 2005. Yes it is fair. As fair as one could make it I believe. Sorry if you were harmed, but I was not the one to do it to you. No ALPA pilot did it to you.

 

[EastUS]

AWA "Tiger": "If you can't understand that your seniority entitles you to exactly nothing at another airline then we are just beating or head against the wall with this one..."

Hmmm....I'm left to assume that your observation clearly isn't inclusive of your own AWA "seniority" within the confines of a new corporate entity calling itself LCC/USAirways?

 

[Phoenix]

The IAM goes by DOH in mergers, a process called dovetailing, as does the AFA.

ALPA will eat their own if it lines their wallets.

Yep. Mngmnt isn't the problem here. ALPA is far more capable than any group of MBA shysters.

 

[pilot]

The E pilot was in line for an upgrade (res to lineholder, r seat to l, bigger equipment, etc. ) because it was an E pilot that retired (running 4 to 1 E vs W) that allowed the position to be available. Giving some, most, or all of the the W pilots an opportunity to bid on it before the E pilot IS a windfall, at the other's expense. That's the crux of the problem from the E side, regardless of where you ended up on the combined list, especially an airline not growing, as has occurred, and is estimated to be that way, going forward by management.

In a nutshell this is precisely why the West got a windfall. They get in line and take the attrition based jobs that belong to the East guys BECAUSE of the EAST attrition. The West knows it but they obfuscate the issue with their screaming about binding arbitration.

Both pilot groups fully expected Nic to follow all the tenets of the merger policy. Had he done so he would have fenced the East attrition positions which is basically all the East guys are clamoring over. The West gets those positions with the nic list AT THE EXPENSE of the East guys. That does not follow merger policy.

Of course the other scenario is when another 9/11 happens and a 20 year guy who was never furloughed gets nailed while a 4 year guy skates.


pilot

 

[Tiger 1050]

AWA "Tiger": "If you can't understand that your seniority entitles you to exactly nothing at another airline then we are just beating or head against the wall with this one..."

Hmmm....I'm left to assume that your observation clearly isn't inclusive of your own AWA "seniority" within the confines of a new corporate entity calling itself LCC/USAirways?

Actually that's exactly what I mean! My seniority meant nothing at US. But when we merged I brought a narrowbody F/O seat with me. That is what I believe I am entitled to and that is what I received. Your east arguements suggest that even if you are furloughed you should be placed on the list ahead of active pilots "because you have umpteen years" under your belt. I don't give a rats a$$ how many years you have with your now defunct company. Fact is you are on the list in a position that you held prior to all this. Blame Wolf, Gangwal, Siegel etc. . Like a child you guys are lashing out at the first thing you see...

Good day little children...

 

[Tiger 1050]

In a nutshell this is precisely why the West got a windfall. They get in line and take the attrition based jobs that belong to the East guys BECAUSE of the EAST attrition. The West knows it but they obfuscate the issue with their screaming about binding arbitration.

Now don't go thinking that we want all of your attrition. Did you know that more than half of your attrition will be from the right seat?

Both pilot groups fully expected Nic to follow all the tenets of the merger policy. Had he done so he would have fenced the East attrition positions which is basically all the East guys are clamoring over. The West gets those positions with the nic list AT THE EXPENSE of the East guys. That does not follow merger policy.

Nic did follow the policy. If he hadn't then your puerile lawsuit would have some steam to it by now. To say that the west got a windfall and Nic puposefully screwed you guys is nothing more than an opinion skewed by raw emotion.

Of course the other scenario is when another 9/11 happens and a 20 year guy who was never furloughed gets nailed while a 4 year guy skates.

Hope for the best and plan for the worst. That is what we did here out west. No out of this world expectations of DOH like we witnessed from our "brothers and sisters" out east.

Good day little children...


pilot

 

[Mr Furlough]

Triumph,

We are way too far apart to come to any kind of consensus. Like you of me, I don't agree with your assessment of this ugly outcome. This will play out just as every other huge problem around here has.

May you never be placed in a situation as ours. But if you do, please know, that is has no bearing on you as a man nor professional pilot. We get into this thing for keeps, and do our very best. Everyone knows it. Management especially knows it. As we do our best; rocks get thrown at us for really no reason, nor blame of our own.

Shame of it is; our union has lost it's integrity. They have an itch for stomping on one faction to boost another faction. Simply a business plan if you will-you know, revenue. Thought I'd never see the day. So that leaves us family-the thick and thin kind. And for me, that's good enough.

I promise to fight for my career. I promise to fight for appropriate pay scales, healthcare, and retirement. For my kids, my wife, and for common professional standards. I don't want yours, and you may not have mine. We work this out and I will be the first to defend your job, your pay, and your future and retirement. But if you want to capture the slightest bit of the vacancies that are being created due to the average age of my group-you pal are on your own.

Best,