No more fighting from the East or the West...

[Tiger 1050]

Yea good argument....So in your world, it doesn't matter how long you work for an employer under a seniority system. It's still ok for them to place a less tenured employee ahead of someone with 16 years greater tenor....under a seniority system.

Enlighten me, how does the seniority system work?

Are you furloughed?

If so how could that have happened if you are so "senior?" You probably have better than 15yrs with US. That's great. But that and a nickel will get you a hot cup of jack-squat. Your arguement, as I understand it, says you should be placed above others because you have (?) years with US and joe blow has (?) years with AWA. Well seniority does not work like that in our case. Unless of course we have some sort of "national" seniority system I don't know about. Your "seniority" is seniority at your airline (think prior to this mess). Not at AWA. Not at the new US. What you believe you are entitled to is called a DOH integration. You should know by now that this policy ceased to exist sometime back in 1991. Fact is you guys were run into the ground long before AWA ever got involved. Hence your furlough. Maybe you guys should petition ALPA to let you take a flying position from a DAL guy or a UAL guy or a NWA guy. Yeah try it! 'Cause I'm sure there are "less tenured" pilots on their list...

Hopefully I have provided a little insight. But then, you couldn't have that because that would mean the student has taught the teacher in your mind. Way too pointy for your ego it would seem...


Good day little children...

 

[Chipmunk]

Are you furloughed?

If so how could that have happened if you are so "senior?" You probably have better than 15yrs with US. That's great. But that and a nickel will get you a hot cup of jack-squat. Your arguement, as I understand it, says you should be placed above others because you have (?) years with US and joe blow has (?) years with AWA. Well seniority does not work like that in our case. Unless of course we have some sort of "national" seniority system I don't know about. Your "seniority" is seniority at your airline (think prior to this mess). Not at AWA. Not at the new US. What you believe you are entitled to is called a DOH integration. You should know by now that this policy ceased to exist sometime back in 1991. Fact is you guys were run into the ground long before AWA ever got involved. Hence your furlough. Maybe you guys should petition ALPA to let you take a flying position from a DAL guy or a UAL guy or a NWA guy. Yeah try it! 'Cause I'm sure there are "less tenured" pilots on their list...

Hopefully I have provided a little insight. But then, you couldn't have that because that would mean the student has taught the teacher in your mind. Way too pointy for your ego it would seem...
Good day little children...

Someday, young lady, when you get old enough to remove the training wheels from your "Tiger Tricycle", you will learn what "SENIORITY" really means!!!

 

[Tiger 1050]

Someday, young lady, when you get old enough to remove the training wheels from your "Tiger Tricycle", you will learn what "SENIORITY" really means!!!

Somebody stronger, faster, smarter and just plain better always comes along old man. It's about time you grab your walker and get a move on. The new generation is here and this is a new world...


Good day little children...

 

[EastUS]

Somebody stronger, faster, smarter and just plain better always comes along old man. It's about time you grab your walker and get a move on. The new generation is here and this is a new world...
Good day little children...

Sigh...another AWA "Tiger". OK: Figure out what you consider as an appropriate testing of respective flying skills. You guys seem notoriously shy about anything approaching even a simulation of aerial combat, so the Fighter Fantasy type outfit's not any absolute requirement for me. Bring at least five grand as stakes, plus a witness.

"The new generation is here.."
...and my poor aged heart's just all aflutter

Open with a personal message if interested.

"Good day little children..."

 

[AWA320]

AWA320,

Please don't modify my post in quotes. One would hope that the administrator would take care of a misrepresented statement utilizing my name.

Be that as it may. You will reap what you sow in all of this. It is something called precedence. While you may feel bullet proof now-hanging it all on the Nicolau award-thing is this business has a way of coming home to roost. That's free advice.

If you care to add your thoughts within the argument, I welcome your opinion. But don't change what I have posted.

Did you or did you not say that our careers would be handed to us in a bag XXXX??? Well hence my statement I am waiting on my bag so what's you beef this time??? OHHH maybe I should have said a bag of DOH SXXT!! That better???

 

[AWA320]

Aside from my "obvious lack if intellect" did you actually read and understand the part wherein I noted that I wasted no time by way of reading your latest, presumably circular drivel? " "Against my reasonable intent to properly digest a fine luncheon...I was actually going to read your post AWA...but it's become far past tiresome even attempting to translate your gibberish into anything approaching actual english." FYI; in the english language: "I was actually going to read your post AWA"..isn't in any way indicative of having read it. There's scarce reason to do so, as you've simply been bleating out the same childish nonsense for three full months now.

This last one-liner of yours amounts to little more than a sad cry for help methinks. I never place anyone on "ignore" as it's against my principles to do so, but don't expect any rapt attention paid to your postings. Do feel perfectly free to avoid mine as well.

You got me east I am crying for help I need help brother save me please!!! Hows the decert effort going?? I hear you are going to try and get that lame law suit back in the DC courts from where it really belongs in the federal system dumb move on your part. Hey ALPA'S PAYING for my lawyer how about yours???

 

[AWA320]

Someday, young lady, when you get old enough to remove the training wheels from your "Tiger Tricycle", you will learn what "SENIORITY" really means!!!

Oh brother here we go again with the " I deserve DOH and you need to feel sorry for me"!! We heard it all already and we weren't too impressed the first time. In fact neither was the arbitrator and the TWO neutrals either. Wasn't one of them yours??? Time and money your're wasting is your own.

Your DOH mantra is starting to smell like your screen name

 

[Mr Furlough]

Did you or did you not say that our careers would be handed to us in a bag XXXX??? Well hence my statement I am waiting on my bag so what's you beef this time??? OHHH maybe I should have said a bag of DOH SXXT!! That better???

I'm so sorry. I though I could address you as a professional and an adult. So now I must illustrate using colors and explanations to the obvious.

Here's what I posted:

"Further, while DOH was removed (by political means) from the policy, I am quit sure that relative seniority was never put in it's place.

Also, since we are referring to the ALPA policy; Doesn't it mention anything about avoiding windfalls?

The seniority system was adopted a very long time ago buy ALPA. In fact today it is the standard throughout our industry. It was created to disallow management from bringing in a relative, a friend, or a group to fill Captain positions over those whom were already serving the airline. How you west guys go from this concept to the concept that it is perfectly alright to place an apprentice member ahead of a 18 year member is beyond words.

Should the fiasco proceed and the Nicolau award is implemented-than as the previous post suggest-you will have your careers handed in a s*%t bag to you.

Unbelievable.... "

Here's what you modified as my quotation (your changes to my quote in red):

"Further, while DOH was removed (by political means) from the policy, I am quit sure that relative seniority was never put in it's place.

Also, since we are referring to the ALPA policy; Doesn't it mention anything about avoiding windfalls?

The seniority system was adopted a very long time ago buy ALPA. In fact today it is the standard throughout our industry. It was created to disallow management from bringing in a relative, a friend, or a group to fill Captain positions over those whom were already serving the airline. How you west guys go from this concept to the concept that it is perfectly alright to place an apprentice member ahead of a 18 year member is beyond words.

Again how many people did this 18 yr SEASONED pilot have below him on your list???????????

Should the fiasco proceed and the Nicolau award is implemented-than as the previous post suggest-you will have your careers handed in a s*%t bag to you.

Unbelievable...."

All I ask is that you stop modifying what I said.

 

[Mr Furlough]

Are you furloughed?

If so how could that have happened if you are so "senior?" You probably have better than 15yrs with US. That's great. But that and a nickel will get you a hot cup of jack-squat. Your arguement, as I understand it, says you should be placed above others because you have (?) years with US and joe blow has (?) years with AWA. Well seniority does not work like that in our case. Unless of course we have some sort of "national" seniority system I don't know about. Your "seniority" is seniority at your airline (think prior to this mess). Not at AWA. Not at the new US. What you believe you are entitled to is called a DOH integration. You should know by now that this policy ceased to exist sometime back in 1991. Fact is you guys were run into the ground long before AWA ever got involved. Hence your furlough. Maybe you guys should petition ALPA to let you take a flying position from a DAL guy or a UAL guy or a NWA guy. Yeah try it! 'Cause I'm sure there are "less tenured" pilots on their list...

Hopefully I have provided a little insight. But then, you couldn't have that because that would mean the student has taught the teacher in your mind. Way too pointy for your ego it would seem...
Good day little children...

"Well seniority does not work like that in our case."

Yes it does. It's that way for everyone in aviation. You don't get to leapfrog.

"What you believe you are entitled to is called a DOH integration. You should know by now that this policy ceased to exist sometime back in 1991."

I'm not entitled to anything beyond our current system. Neither are you. DOH was removed from the merger language, but the seniority system is alive and well in aviation. The purpose of having a seniority system is to disallow exactly what Nicolau has fowled up.

"Maybe you guys should petition ALPA to let you take a flying position from a DAL guy or a UAL guy or a NWA guy."

And that would be less criminal than what the AWA pilots are attempting to get away with the U pilots.

"Hopefully I have provided a little insight. But then, you couldn't have that because that would mean the student has taught the teacher in your mind. Way too pointy for your ego it would seem...
Good day little children..."

Actually, it's not my ego that gets bruised here. My frustration stems from people with little years in this business attempting to tell me how it is. I'll listen and consider anything from anyone. But when you push a bad idea simply because you want to cash in on a bad move expect to hear from all of us. Further, it wouldn't hurt your side a bit to consider the damages this award does to our profession. Merger upon mergers are ahead in your career. You work in an industry that is in a stagnant to shrinking business plan. All relative seniority (which appears no where in ALPA merger policy) does is assure that those in the bottom half of the seniority list will remain there. After you accrue decades yanking gear wouldn't you just love to learn that a apprentice member is entitled to your upgrade?

 

[markkus757]

It's amazing how many people think that just because the name on the uniform hasn't changed, that they STILL work for the same company....................... :down:

 

[AWA320]

I'm so sorry. I though I could address you as a professional and an adult. So now I must illustrate using colors and explanations to the obvious.

Here's what I posted:

"Further, while DOH was removed (by political means) from the policy, I am quit sure that relative seniority was never put in it's place.

Also, since we are referring to the ALPA policy; Doesn't it mention anything about avoiding windfalls?

The seniority system was adopted a very long time ago buy ALPA. In fact today it is the standard throughout our industry. It was created to disallow management from bringing in a relative, a friend, or a group to fill Captain positions over those whom were already serving the airline. How you west guys go from this concept to the concept that it is perfectly alright to place an apprentice member ahead of a 18 year member is beyond words.

Should the fiasco proceed and the Nicolau award is implemented-than as the previous post suggest-you will have your careers handed in a s*%t bag to you.

Unbelievable.... "

Here's what you modified as my quotation (your changes to my quote in red):

"Further, while DOH was removed (by political means) from the policy, I am quit sure that relative seniority was never put in it's place.

Also, since we are referring to the ALPA policy; Doesn't it mention anything about avoiding windfalls?

The seniority system was adopted a very long time ago buy ALPA. In fact today it is the standard throughout our industry. It was created to disallow management from bringing in a relative, a friend, or a group to fill Captain positions over those whom were already serving the airline. How you west guys go from this concept to the concept that it is perfectly alright to place an apprentice member ahead of a 18 year member is beyond words.

Again how many people did this 18 yr SEASONED pilot have below him on your list???????????

Should the fiasco proceed and the Nicolau award is implemented-than as the previous post suggest-you will have your careers handed in a s*%t bag to you.

Unbelievable...."

All I ask is that you stop modifying what I said.

You are correct in your statement, I am just so used to east folks using that term that It was just a reflex to say it.

 

[767jetz]

Also, since we are referring to the ALPA policy; Doesn't it mention anything about avoiding windfalls?

No. You are either taking it our of context or just regurgitating what your MEC says without reading and understanding it yourself.

ALPA merger policy says to avoid windfalls AT THE OTHER"S EXPENSE. A 3 year West pilot that is in line for a captain upgrade, getitng it before an 18 year East pilot who was the next to be furloughed and still years away from a captain upgrade is not a windfall. We can debate that until eternity but it doesn't change a thing, because even IF it was, it did not come at the East Pilot's expense. The East pilot was not in line for an upgrade and the West plot was. So there is nothing lost. It came at no one's expense. Therefore it is in line with ALPA merger policy regardless.

 

[supercruiser]

The East pilot was not in line for an upgrade and the West plot was. So there is nothing lost. It came at no one's expense. Therefore it is in line with ALPA merger policy regardless.

The E pilot was in line for an upgrade (res to lineholder, r seat to l, bigger equipment, etc. ) because it was an E pilot that retired (running 4 to 1 E vs W) that allowed the position to be available. Giving some, most, or all of the the W pilots an opportunity to bid on it before the E pilot IS a windfall, at the other's expense. That's the crux of the problem from the E side, regardless of where you ended up on the combined list, especially an airline not growing, as has occurred, and is estimated to be that way, going forward by management.

Please spare me the you got a windfall by continued employment, etc. The position is simply vacated due to E pilot attrition, a function of age, and nothing else.

 

[Mr Furlough]

No. You are either taking it our of context or just regurgitating what your MEC says without reading and understanding it yourself.

ALPA merger policy says to avoid windfalls AT THE OTHER"S EXPENSE. A 3 year West pilot that is in line for a captain upgrade, getitng it before an 18 year East pilot who was the next to be furloughed and still years away from a captain upgrade is not a windfall. We can debate that until eternity but it doesn't change a thing, because even IF it was, it did not come at the East Pilot's expense. The East pilot was not in line for an upgrade and the West plot was. So there is nothing lost. It came at no one's expense. Therefore it is in line with ALPA merger policy regardless.

I would say that placing a apprentice pilot ahead of an 18 year pilot thus blocking him/her from ever upgrading-expediting the upgrade to captain for said apprentice pilot-and making available wide body flying-while blocking the 18 year guy from the wide body is a huge windfall for Dave.

But hey, what do I know....

 

[wopr21]

So why do you think you are entitled to super-seniority? You were at the bottom of your own list and you were appropriately placed at the bottom of the combined list. That is fair, no gain or loss for you. If you are envious of Dave's age that is a personal problem. Yes, he has quite many years remaining in his career, but to use that or his age against his advancement as a professional pilot is pure discrimination. This board has seen a collection of east pilots post endlessly about DOH but none of you can produce one document relevant to this merger which states DOH, years of service are considerations in an integrated seniority list. You all tap dance (and very well I might add) around that little fact and pontificate constantly about your righteous entitlement to super-seniority.
So, just produce one document relevant to ALPA merger policy stating your career stagnation merits super seniority on our list. Just one. If you can't produce anything (we all know you can't produce anything because this DOH principle is a part of your imagination) or just simply take a pass on answering we all will understand why.

I'm really getting tired of trying to convince the west how much our date of hire means to us here on the money making side on the east so I'll say it again so I'll feel better. If we were the same age group, I would have no problem with the Nic award. I have yet to hear or read a post explaining to me what advantageous positions they will have when our retirements occur. The west will never acknowledge it. Thats what we are fighting for. It will never happen so y'all can go your way and we will go ours capturing our expectations on both sides. Thats fair, since we were both out of business anyway.

You all need to comply with the EC resolutions so we can get these contracts done and all live in peace.

Enough said....

wopr21