Next Conspiracy - AA and Eagle to Merge

[Buck]

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On 5/11/2003 8:22:37 PM will fix for food wrote:

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On 5/11/2003 6:37:38 PM Buck wrote:

"Ok I am listening. How is AMFA making a case to have your pay rolled back?"


AMFA,the organization, meaning the officers in Laconia, are not.


"Who wants you to go back below $20 an hour?"


Well, apparently you do. Remember the whole "Why isn/t Eagle participating in the Shared Sacrifices. We took a 17.5% cut, what about them"? A 17.5% cut to us would bring a topped out Eagle mechanic to just above $19.20.

"If you are a mechanic at Eagle my position is and will always be for you as an A&P mechanic to be my equal. It does not matter if we are employeed by an airline, FBO or whatever. When I support the AMFA, it is from the constitution and the belief that aircraft mechanics are skilled labor that deserve to be compensated for the responsibility they take on a daily basis. AMFA is not Buck or RV4, it is the membership."


I am assuming you are an associate member. So as an AMFA member, how does your philosophy of " I took a pay cut so that Eagle guy damn well better take one also" mesh with what I thought AMFA''s philosophy was, which was for the advancement of mechanics?


"It is not the union leadership that has become corrupt under the flag of the AFL-CIO. Hopefully it will be the likes of mechanics like Bob Owens who understand the important legislation for us as aircraft mechanics. The division created by the industrial unionism has seen it''s day. It is time for the mechanic and related to step forward and be shown the respect they earn."


"If Eagle and AA merge, what will happen to the seniority? What is fair and equitable?

"


I just hope that day doesn/t happen. Except for riding some coattails to a higher wage and benefit package, there is no upside for an Eagle mechanic. I would much rather we fight and win it for ourselves. Of course to win it for ourselves, we have to fight a hostile company, an apathetic union, and now you and your cronies.

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It is why isnt'' Eagle particpating because they are part of AMR. You have had your feelings hurt out of pride for your profession that you believe I am attacking. That is so far from the truth. Your unions inability to negotiate a wage that represents your skill has made you angry and now you need a place to vent. So you find an arbitrary target. Being an Associate member changes nothing. It falls back on the question, is Eagle part of AMR? The answer is yes so you feel threatened by my postings. The threat is there, but it is not by me. It is your union and the company that you work for that you need to watch and worry about. Your jibberish about you taking a paycut because of an affiliation with AMFA is absurd. If that were true then I would advocate the mechanic and related at Southwest and Northwest take a paycut also. Those that are represented by AMFA in this industry are advancing through negotiations that produce no concessions., unlike the industrial unions at UAL and AA. SO you are satisfied that without a merger that you are where you want to be in your career? You advocate the separation of the AA and Eagle or the majors from the feeders, therefore you advocate the separation of the two mechanic and related groups. No you do not have to fight me or my cronies, because me and my cronies are you and yours. When you realize that then maybe we as mechanics can find the pride in our profession again.​

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/12/2003 8:58:50 AM will fix for food wrote:

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On 5/11/2003 10:27:08 PM Buck wrote:



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"It is why isnt'' Eagle particpating because they are part of AMR."


This is going nowhere. You think Eagle should be giving back because they are part of AMR. I agree they are part of AMR. I also think that TA/ing a 0% raise is more of a give back than you receiving a 4.5% raise. Apparently you don/t see it that way. Fine.

"You have had your feelings hurt out of pride for your profession that you believe I am attacking."

No, I never thought you were attacking mechanics in general, just Eagle mechanics.

"That is so far from the truth. Your unions inability to negotiate a wage that represents your skill has made you angry and now you need a place to vent."


Yep, they have been extremely average as far as negotiating my wage schedule. That doesn/t make me dance for joy. However,they aren/t proposing that I actually go back in pay. That honor rests solely with you.


"So you find an arbitrary target. Being an Associate member changes nothing. It falls back on the question, is Eagle part of AMR?

Yes it is. I have said that all along.

"The answer is yes so you feel threatened by my postings. The threat is there, but it is not by me. It is your union and the company that you work for that you need to watch and worry about. Your jibberish about you taking a paycut because of an affiliation with AMFA is absurd."


That''s not what I said. AMFA stands for the mechanics. As such, I hold AMFA to a higher standard in that they should not be wanting to, and they should certainly not be actively trying to get mechanics to give concessions. Yet you are actively trying to get Eagle mechanics to give concessions. That is where the rub is. Remember, you said that the union is the members. HOWEVER, I do know that every organization with more than one member usually has an oddball. I am guessing you are that oddball and the rest of the membership doesn/t want to see the bar lowered even more amongst the mechanics.So, in summary, I don/t blame AMFA for your short-sightedness.

"If that were true then I would advocate the mechanic and related at Southwest and Northwest take a paycut also. Those that are represented by AMFA in this industry are advancing through negotiations that produce no concessions., unlike the industrial unions at UAL and AA. SO you are satisfied that without a merger that you are where you want to be in your career?"

For now, sure. Of course that is subject to change.

"You advocate the separation of the AA and Eagle or the majors from the feeders, therefore you advocate the separation of the two mechanic and related groups."


Hmmm...yep, I guess I do. But now it is your turn. Do you think there should be a merger,which apparently you do,and if so should it be DOH,a staple, or a ratio method. Remember, you argued twice in this post that A/A and Eagle are just two entities within the same company.

"No you do not have to fight me or my cronies, because me and my cronies are you and yours. When you realize that then maybe we as mechanics can find the pride in our profession again.​

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"


Wow, that statement was the feel good hit of the summertime.Forgive me if I get a little misty.



BTW, I am not going to argue anymore over whether Eagle is contributing to the give backs, because clearly I think we are, and you do not. Neither of us is going to change our mind so that debate has reached dead horse status.

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[will fix for food]

duplicate post deleted

 

[Buck]

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On 5/12/2003 9:07:34 AM will fix for food wrote:

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On 5/12/2003 8:58:50 AM will fix for food wrote:

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On 5/11/2003 10:27:08 PM Buck wrote:



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"It is why isnt'' Eagle particpating because they are part of AMR."


  This is going nowhere. You think Eagle should be giving back because they are part of AMR. I agree they are part of AMR. I also think that TA/ing a 0% raise is more of a give back than you receiving a 4.5% raise. Apparently you don/t see it that way. Fine.

"You have had your feelings hurt out of pride for your profession that you believe I am attacking."

No, I never thought you were attacking mechanics in general, just Eagle mechanics.

"That is so far from the truth. Your unions inability to negotiate a wage that represents your skill has made you angry and now you need a place to vent."


Yep, they have been extremely average as far as negotiating my wage schedule. That doesn/t make me dance for joy. However,they aren/t proposing that I actually go back in pay. That honor rests solely with you.


"So you find an arbitrary target. Being an Associate member changes nothing. It falls back on the question, is Eagle part of AMR?

Yes it is. I have said that all along.

"The answer is yes so you feel threatened by my postings. The threat is there, but it is not by me. It is your union and the company that you work for that you need to watch and worry about. Your jibberish about you taking a paycut because of an affiliation with AMFA is absurd."


That''s not what I said. AMFA stands for the mechanics. As such, I hold AMFA to a higher standard in that they should not be wanting to, and they should certainly not be actively trying to get mechanics to give concessions. Yet you are actively trying to get Eagle mechanics to give concessions. That is where the rub is. Remember, you said that the union is the members. HOWEVER, I do know that every organization with more than one member usually has an oddball. I am guessing you are that oddball and the rest of the membership doesn/t want to see the bar lowered even more amongst the mechanics.So, in summary, I don/t blame AMFA for your short-sightedness. 

"If that were true then I would advocate the mechanic and related at Southwest and Northwest take a paycut also. Those that are represented by AMFA in this industry are advancing through negotiations that produce no concessions., unlike the industrial unions at UAL and AA.  SO you are satisfied that without a merger that you are where you want to be in your career?"

For now, sure. Of course that is subject to change.

"You advocate the separation of the AA and Eagle or the majors from the feeders, therefore you advocate the separation of the two mechanic and related groups."


  Hmmm...yep, I guess I do. But now it is your turn. Do you think there should be a merger,which apparently you do,and if so should it be DOH,a staple, or a ratio method. Remember, you argued twice in this post that A/A and Eagle are just two entities within the same company.

"No you do not have to fight me or my cronies, because me and my cronies are you and yours. When you realize that then maybe we as mechanics can find the pride in our profession again.​

​

"


  Wow, that statement was the feel good hit of the summertime.Forgive me if I get a little misty.



  BTW, I am not going to argue anymore over whether Eagle is contributing to the give backs, because clearly I think we are, and you do not. Neither of us is going to change our mind so that debate has reached dead horse status.

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No I do not think Eagle should be giving back because they are part of AMR. I said Eagle should participate if they are part of AMR and you have indicated that they have been participating. I assure you that I am not actively trying to lower anyones wages, just the opposite. I would rather see all of us earn wages that our responsibility dictates. So if you are rubbed the wrong way it has nothing to do with my beliefs. Oh I am an oddball alright, I am on Agency Fee. I am an associate member of AMFA which makes me praticing dual unionism. It is the organization that I support that enabled me to receive the 22% increase from the last contract. You did not have the AMFA advantage.
As for the merger, I do believe it should be done. It should have never been separate in the first place nor should an A&P mechanic receive the paltry wage that has been placed on the Eagle mechanic. Do you have as much responsibility for your work as I do for mine? I believe in "Dovetailing" I think your DOH is the same thing. I also believe that a mechanic should carry his seniority throughout his/her career, no matter where they work.

Glad I could make you little misty.

 

[RV4]

Truth be known, the debate over Eagle contribution to "shared sacrifice" ended many moons ago.

It appears impossible for most to stay on topic, so we are tolerant.

BUT,

What the original topic?

Does anyone think AA and Eagle will merge?

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/12/2003 9:17:29 PM RV4 wrote:


Truth be known, the debate over Eagle contribution to "shared sacrifice" ended many moons ago.

It appears impossible for most to stay on topic, so we are tolerant.

BUT,

What the original topic?

Does anyone think AA and Eagle will merge?

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I doubt it. Why would the company want to do that? They have all but gutted the SCOPE clause and the Eagle "E" scale remains intact. Best of both worlds for them.

 

[RV4]

I was thinking that AA could sell the Executive Air division of Eagle, then merge AA and Eagle together and begin to buy/lease more RJ's and evolve to a more point to point service over time.

The merge would be accomplished for both Labor peace, and consolidation of operations for dollar savings.

Shutdown Kansas City while it is being refurbished and then turn it into the RJ Maintnance Facility.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 5/13/2003 515 AM RV4 wrote:


The merge would be accomplished for both Labor peace, and consolidation of operations for dollar savings.


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Have you ever known of a seniority list merger that resulted in labor peace?

99% of the A/A guys will want a staple. 100% of the Eagle guys will want DOH.

Frankly, from an operational standpoint, I don/t see how a staple would work.
There are about 1000 Eagle mechanics. If they were stapled, your last furlough would have gotten them all and then some. Even though they are "just" RJ''s and "just" turboprops, there is a learning curve involved in them, particularly with the turboprops. American mechanics for the most part wouldn/t just be able to step in and get them off the gate in time. That, coupled with the attitude that some of them will have ("I/m not working on that little piece of s--t, I/m a 777 mechanic")would definatly throw a wrench in the operation--no pun intended.

 

[Connected1]

Why would we merge AA/AE when we could spin off AE and operate for 60 more days on the furniture that we burned?