New vote on Thursday

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On 12/2/2002 12:48:52 PM ualdriver wrote:

As you read the above posts, keep in mind that Bob Owens is an AA employee and has a vested interest in the failure of United Airlines.
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What do you base your statement on? I will say for the record that I do not want to see UAL fail. 13000 extra mechanics in the market will not enhance my bargaining position in 2004.
UALdriver are you a mechanic who will have to support a family on $60k or less or will you still be earning six figures even with the cuts?
 
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/2/2002 9:15:42 AM RV4 wrote:
[P]I predict it will pass regardless of how the mechanics vote.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Here's one mech that will vote "Yes". Common fellow mechs, lets help the company out so it can take care of us. Bankruptcy is no way to go. We will lose more if we don't vote this in. Let's deal w/the other issues after we get this out of the way!!
 
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 1:12:10 PM ual747mech wrote:



[BLOCKQUOTE]
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Here's one mech that will vote "Yes". Common fellow mechs, lets help the company out so it can take care of us. Bankruptcy is no way to go. We will lose more if we don't vote this in. Let's deal w/the other issues after we get this out of the way!!


[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]


I meant "Come on" instead of common:)[/P]
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[/blockquote]

FYI, you can edit you own posts by selecting "edit topic". I have to do it a lot myself
 
BobOwens says: "that's just bull and you know it".

Oh really? Are you a UA employee? How much time have you spent working for this company? This has more to do with sending a message to UA senior management than it does anything else. The only trouble is, this is a different UA senior management than the ones who screwed all of us the last few years. All of us except you, that is.

The company didn't dream up the 6 year plan and YOU know it. The ATSB dictated it. Let's not forget that UA's first attempt at the ATSB loan guarantee was a much shorter program and the ATSB laughed us out of D.C. If the IAM had been concerned at all about helping to turn UA around sooner, we wouldn't have even had to apply for an ATSB loan guarantee in the first place. But they were too caught up in playing footsie with AMFA. So, enter Tilton 3 months ago and he has barely any time to save this airline from itself. UA has no alternatives now. It's either get the ATSB loan guarantee or file for Ch.11. In fact, we could get the ATSB loan guarantee and still file for Ch 11. That's where we're at. So tell me where UA has a CHOICE as to the length of the concessionary ERP's??? You talk as though you are Scotty Ford or Joe Tiberi. You're an AA employee who DOES NOT want to see UA successfully restructure because of its obvious affects on your own pocket and job security.

Why don't you share with all of us how this industry in general, and UA in particular, is going to dramatically rebound and begin posting pre-2000 profit margins again? I'm really curious as to your logic for making such insinuations. What industry financial data are you looking at?

Your remarks about US are irrelevant to UA's situation. The reason for US Airways having to now get MORE cuts is because their business plan no longer meets the ATSB requirements. Their revenue forecasts were overly optimistic and when combined with a continually worsening industry revenue environment, they had no choice. On the contrary, UA employees, including mechanics, should view the US situation as exactly the kind of chaos and dysfunction that happens when an airline is thrust into a bankruptcy filing without having all its' ducks in a row.

"When will we ever learn?"

We? I didn't know you had quit AA and gone to work for UA and US. Let's at least be honest for a moment and recognize your biased interest in the eventual outcomes of US Airways and United Airlines restructuring efforts. But don't worry, you'll get your chance to vote "no" when Don Carty soon asks you to take one for the team!
 
Bob Evans' schtick was the same monologue that was utilized during the US Airways IAM vote period. You can look back there for a bit of history.
 
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 1:41:18 PM ualdriver wrote:

"Yeah Bob. You've been honest and up front from the beginning. You're telling mechanics for a company that you don't even work for to make, what is in my opinion, an irrational decision that will almost certainly lead to a bankruptcy for United Airlines and a worsening of their already poorly perceived working conditions. Yet nowhere in your numerous diatribes where you're being "honest and up front" do you post that you don't even work for this airline, and that there is a conflict of interest between your stated opinions and your position with American Airlines, where you will more than likely benefit from a weakened United Airlines as a competitor."

I am a mechanic. How would UAL's demise help me? I see no benifit.

"And for the record, Bob, since I came up the civilian route to the major airlines, I made salaries far, far less than 60K a year for many years. So to answer your question, if my pay was cut to 60K or less tomorrow, I will be honest and say that it would hurt a bit, but I could EASILY support my family on that figure. But what pay has to do with your clear confict of interest is beyond me. Oh wait. I get it now. I'm an overpaid pilot who walked into my 325K/yr. salary and I just don't understand how hard it is to make 60K a year. The old overpaid pilot/underpaid mechanic divide and conquer argument. That's both clever and original, Bob."

And if UAL goes bankrupt you will make "salaries far, far less" than what you will be making even with the concessions. Who has the conflict of interest? Yea you probably could support your family because you probably live in a rural, low cost area because you dont have to commute to work 5 days a week. But most mechanics dont have that luxury.Divide and conquer? Seems that was already done when all you guys sided with the company for concessions.

"So like I said before, and I will likely say again, if you're going to read Bob Owen's posts, be sure to understand that he is an AA employee and stands to gain from the failure of United Airlines."
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[/blockquote]
And I will say this, I've never said that I worked for UAL and I've explained why I post here. However my opponents do not do the same. The fact is that pilots have a lot more to lose than mechanics, thats why some have come here. Most obviously feel that its your business what you do and refrain from making comments even if they do hope that you concede. However others want you to take a cut so that they can keep their six figure 75 hour a month job. I have no opposition to them earning such figures, they fought for it and they earned it but it doesnt give them the right to expect mechanics to take a cut to preserve it. There is still plenty of cushion in pilots compensation before they can be classified as deprived. In NY that number is 80K per year per family of four to live comfortably. Show me a mechanic that has that as a base.
 
***I am a mechanic. How would UAL's demise help me? I see no benifit.****

You're honestly going to tell me that you don't understand or see how American Airlines would benefit from a weaker United Airlines? You post long and detailed diatribes about your interpretation of complicated bankruptcy law, but you don't see how American Airlines would benefit from a stumbling or outright failure of UA? Sure, Bob. Is that above sentence part of the "open and honest" statement you made before?

***And if UAL goes bankrupt you will make "salaries far, far less" than what you will be making even with the concessions. Who has the conflict of interest?***

You have the conflict of interest Bob. I work here. If the 141M votes no again, UAL will be in bankruptcy and will most certainly shrink. American Airlines will benefit from a faltering, smaller United Airlines. You are an American Airlines employee. Therefore, you will benefit, directly or indirectly in the long term from the failure of United Airlines.

And you know what Bob? I'm tired of mechanics (especially ones that don't even work at UA), flight attendants, etc., telling me how destitute I will be if United fails. If United fails, just like every other employee, I'm going to pick myself up and start over again at another airline that will probably be stronger and more likely to survive long term. And in the end, I'll still make more than most flight attendants, mechanics, and other employee groups that co-exist with my job description at my airline. So there's no need, Bob, to tell me about how I have "more to lose" by a bankruptcy. We'll all be screwed in the short term, except you, because you don't work here and will probably benefit directly and indirectly from the demise of a major competitor.

***Yea you probably could support your family because you probably live in a rural, low cost area because you dont have to commute to work 5 days a week.***
***However others want you to take a cut so that they can keep their six figure 75 hour a month job***


I HARDLY live in a rural low cost area. I live in the Chicago suburbs. Take a look at the Chicago Tribune online and let me know about those "low cost" housing prices in the NW suburbs, or any middle class Chicago suburb for that matter.

And I would GLADLY trade 5- 8 hour shifts or 4- 10 hour shifts rather than be away from home 3 days a week, sometimes 5 days a week, but more often 4 days a week. Oh wait, I forgot. I only work 75 hours a month. What was I thinking?

Yeah Bob, we pilots only work 75 hours a month. You'd be a great reporter for USA Today.

As far as your perceived knowledge of pilot salaries, we've (the forum) debated this many times in the past over the past couple of years, both here and on planebusiness. I'll waste no more time trying to justify my salary to someone who doesn't even work here.

Guys, as you read Bob Owen's posts, keep in mind that he in an AA employee and stands to benefit from the failure or faltering of United Airlines.
 
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 2:04:26 PM UAL777flyer wrote:

BobOwens says: "that's just bull and you know it".

Oh really? Are you a UA employee? How much time have you spent working for this company? This has more to do with sending a message to UA senior management than it does anything else. The only trouble is, this is a different UA senior management than the ones who screwed all of us the last few years. All of us except you, that is.

The company didn't dream up the 6 year plan and YOU know it. The ATSB dictated it. Let's not forget that UA's first attempt at the ATSB loan guarantee was a much shorter program and the ATSB laughed us out of D.C. If the IAM had been concerned at all about helping to turn UA around sooner, we wouldn't have even had to apply for an ATSB loan guarantee in the first place. But they were too caught up in playing footsie with AMFA. So, enter Tilton 3 months ago and he has barely any time to save this airline from itself. UA has no alternatives now. It's either get the ATSB loan guarantee or file for Ch.11. In fact, we could get the ATSB loan guarantee and still file for Ch 11. That's where we're at. So tell me where UA has a CHOICE as to the length of the concessionary ERP's??? You talk as though you are Scotty Ford or Joe Tiberi. You're an AA employee who DOES NOT want to see UA successfully restructure because of its obvious affects on your own pocket and job security.

Why don't you share with all of us how this industry in general, and UA in particular, is going to dramatically rebound and begin posting pre-2000 profit margins again? I'm really curious as to your logic for making such insinuations. What industry financial data are you looking at?

Your remarks about US are irrelevant to UA's situation. The reason for US Airways having to now get MORE cuts is because their business plan no longer meets the ATSB requirements. Their revenue forecasts were overly optimistic and when combined with a continually worsening industry revenue environment, they had no choice. On the contrary, UA employees, including mechanics, should view the US situation as exactly the kind of chaos and dysfunction that happens when an airline is thrust into a bankruptcy filing without having all its' ducks in a row.

"When will we ever learn?"

We? I didn't know you had quit AA and gone to work for UA and US. Let's at least be honest for a moment and recognize your biased interest in the eventual outcomes of US Airways and United Airlines restructuring efforts. But don't worry, you'll get your chance to vote "no" when Don Carty soon asks you to take one for the team!
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[/blockquote]


I would say that I've probably spoken to more UAL mechanics on the issue than you and they would probably be more forthright to me than to you.

How would UALs successful recovery threaten my job security?
If Ual is going to file C-11 anyway why agree to concessions now?
The ATSB is a scam. Why have you not realized this yet? If this is a necissary service to the public then why must it guarantee a 7% ROI? Come on wake up, look through the smoke and mirrors. Who heads the ATSB and what is their agenda? What you see as your last hope is a lie.

How will the industry rebound? The same way it did in 1984 and 1994. Source- the ATA website- Financial metrics page. Both of these Profit record breaking years followed shortly after record losing years. Maybe they will have to start charging more.

I beleve that Ford and Tiberi are "for" the concessions. Funny they should talk to the USAIR members.

Funny you had no objections to United Chicago saying "we" when he doesnt even work in the industry. I said "we" because as you well know what happens at UAL will likely happen here. It was directed at my fellow mechanics since they are the only ones that this vote pertains to.
 
Its sad that some folks try to get others to fight their bloody battles for them. It is a sign of true weakness. UAL should not have to die so that Mr. Owens can feel rightous at NWA or Southwest or AA or wherever. Fight your battles at your own place of employment. Don't be such a weak d**k and flame topics at UAL. They have bled enough for their causes.
 
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 5:10:21 PM ualdriver wrote

"You're honestly going to tell me that you don't understand or see how American Airlines would benefit from a weaker United Airlines? You post long and detailed diatribes about your interpretation of complicated bankruptcy law, but you don't see how American Airlines would benefit from a stumbling or outright failure of UA? Sure, Bob. Is that above sentence part of the "open and honest" statement you made before?"

I am not American Airlines. Everything that benifits the company does not neccisarily benifit the workers. Case in point- Long Term Concessions


"You have the conflict of interest Bob. I work here. If the 141M votes no again, UAL will be in bankruptcy and will most certainly shrink. American Airlines will benefit from a faltering, smaller United Airlines. You are an American Airlines employee. Therefore, you will benefit, directly or indirectly in the long term from the failure of United Airlines."

If AA expands that does not neccisarly mean that my compensation will be increased because the going rate has more to do with compensation than the size of the airline-look at what SWAs mechanics make. Your interest in the mechanics vote is to preserve the senoirity and salary that you are unlikely to replace should UAL fail.


"I HARDLY live in a rural low cost area. I live in the Chicago suburbs. Take a look at the Chicago Tribune online and let me know about those "low cost" housing prices in the NW suburbs, or any middle class Chicago suburb for that matter.
And I would GLADLY trade 5- 8 hour shifts or 4- 10 hour shifts rather than be away from home 3 days a week sometimes 5 days a week, but more often 4 days a week. Oh wait, I forgot. I only work 75 hours a month. What was I thinking?
Yeah Bob, we pilots only work 75 hours a month. You'd be a great reporter for USA Today."


So those 4 day weeks away from home, is that every week or do you do that once a month and have off for a week or two? Look, I've said it before that pilots should be well paid but when you guys tell mechanics that their cuts are puny and that they should accept cuts then you have to expect a little flack back. What gives you the right to say that his sacrifice is puny? (Some pilots are of the opinion that they are the only ones that should make a decent living in this industry.) If only 5% of his income is disposable he is going to be suffering and have to work a second job to get by. Who are you to say that thats nothing compared to your cuts? If you feel that you would rather accept six years of concessions instead of risking it all you should not have made your offer contingient on everyone accepting concessions. The fact is if you want that 40 hour a week job you can get it. You just have to exchange the periodic but intense "long weeks" away from home and the long breaks on the other end, along with the salary for reporting to work 5 days a week, every week. I personally would not like that life of being away from home, even with the breaks or the money, but I have what I consider reasonable expectations of what I feel that I should make. Thats why I'm here, as a mechanic who realizes that wage rates follow industry trends. So I'm here as a mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate and your here as a pilot telling mechanics that they should be willing to lower that rate so you can keep what you have. Whats the difference?
Yea and you never did say what your salary was, only how much you were losing.
 
Instead of accusing Bob (or any other non-UAL employee) of having a conflict of interest or looking out for personal gain, perhaps it is the very opposite situation.

Just as labor is quick to point to the industry leading contract as the new benchmark, we all know that the opposite also happens... There's some thought that if UAL votes in wage reductions or work rule changes, that there will be a ripple effect at other carriers.

That's how I'm reading Bob's posts, both here and over on the US Airways board. Perhaps this is more about "defending the profession," to borrow a term from a previous management/labor battle...
 
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 5:41:57 PM Bob Owens wrote:

So I'm here as a mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate ...
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[/blockquote]
No, I think it's pretty obvious by now that you're here to protect the AMERICAN AIRLINES mechanic's rates. By exhorting the United mechanics to vote "no" a 2nd time, with the clear knowledge that a United bankruptcy filing will almost certainly occur within 48 hours after such a rejection, you're asking the United mechanics to protect YOUR pay rate at the likely cost of 25 percent or more of THEIR jobs (and ALL of their jobs if United liquidates). And with a smaller or non-existent United (and if United doesn't exist, US Airways will also very likely be gone), there is less likelihood that your wages at American will need to be reduced. In other words, you want the United mechanics to fall on their swords to protect you -- hardly a noble sentiment! BTW, there's your benefit, since you apparently haven't figured it out yet!

So you truly don't give a rat's a$$ about the United mechanics -- it's really just all about "you, you, you." And why don't you knock off the "What, I'm not gonna benefit!" line, because it's simply not true.
 
Once UA either gets the loan or goes CH11...I can't wait for AA to get the scrutiny. I don't think people realize how deep of sh*t they're in.
 
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