New Vote o Video from Local Presidents

[Overspeed]

Okay...I guess that explains why they are organizing us.

Ouch

 

[Overspeed]

I call BS on that, not the context you used the term alliance. Not even close.

I can't remember the exact context but I won't argue. What I was told by Gordon is that the IBT and the TWU are trying organize MROs and airlines while pushing the legislative aspect to upgrade the FARs to a more level playing field. What this IBT drive has to do with it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I have my ideas but blocking AMFA is not one of them. Fact is a lot of guys don't buy the craft union idea as the panacea. They are mad and much of that is directed towards the Int'l mostly because the Local Presidents don't want to own that they backed us in to a corner on the negotiations and now we are screwed.

Bottom line, this deal sucks but the alternative sucks more. I don't disagree that many of the items they point out are not good, however we are not in negotiations right now. Maybe Bob knows that and wants to risk the 4,500 jobs lost so he can keep negotiating after AA emerges from BK. Still no guarantee we will get better pay however the probability may rise slightly. Very slightly. AA will still cry they are just recovering from BK for years and will do the Jim Weel Shuffle for a few more years before we are released. And the probability of a merger is high as well. That will slow everything down even more.

 

[dfw gen]

Overspeed why don't you just hide if your so afraid?

 

[FWAAA]

It's totally clear FWAAA has no idea how holiday pay works at the airlines in line maintenance.We all get holiday pay all of the holidays because we have to work it.If we are off on a holiday our next day back is holiday pay.So the numbers are real and AA's suck.

So it's the same at each and every airline on the chart? Even the nonunion ones; even at B6 that appears to grant employees 45 days off but doesn't break out the holiday, sick or vacation time separately? If so, seems like a lot of complexity if everyone gets the holiday pay every year. Anyway, thanks for the info.

How about the sick time? Does everyone get paid for all their sick time whether or not they're sick? And isn't vacation still just well-deserved time off?

 

[ch53D]

Just voted NO!!!!!!!!

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed why don't you just hide if your so afraid?

I'm not afraid. To the contrary I should be advocating a no vote because I will still be here and have a strong chance of reaping the benefits of sacrificing all those jobs to outsourcing. The decreased cost of maintenance from outsourcing could possibly translate to more money in my paycheck. I however do not feel okay with telling my lower seniority union brothers and sisters, "Vote no brother and sister AMTs! It's for the craft!" When in reality, it's for giving me a chance, a CHANCE, to get more money in my paycheck.

 

[Anomaly]

That is about the most lame psot I have ever seen you make here. Wow

If this is the "most lame post" why then did you re-post this on other threads ??

 

[TWU informer]

If this is the "most lame post" why then did you re-post this on other threads ??

If you see an oppurtunity to promote the Teamsters and educate us all on how their massive size, their political clout, and the worldwide name recognition got the UPS contract and/or the UAL contract raises in place, then by all means explain it to us. You are so engulfed with anger and hate towards me that you cannot even promote what you believe in.

If you are expecting me to promote the ibt, I can assure you that your life here on earth will be expired before that ever happens.

 

[Hopeful]

One might argue that the airline/parcel carrier with the least number of mechanics makes the highest salary!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Just sayin"

 

[Bob Owens]

But you aren't winning.

And you can get elected to student council president by promising Led Zeppelin will play the prom, all-you-can-eat free pizza at lunch time, and Friday ditch day if elected too.

There you go again, saying that our members have the maturity level and Judgement of High School kids.

You are stating something that you know you can't get and then blaming the system and everyone else when it doesn't happen. That doesn't make a good representative when all this vote no until something good happens plan is only getting more and more jobs and benefits cut.

If everyone else has it and we had it then why are you claiming we can get it?

But at least you can put your name on an internet bulletin board and beat your chest right? That's gotta mean something?

Apparently it does.

But will it pay the bills for the 4,500 that get axed?

Hmm with system protection they can only axe around 1700, you are advocating that we agree to remove System Protection and outsource 35% of Maintenance spend which would allow them to outsource more than 4500 jobs.

Has UA recalled all the people they laid off in BK? No and its been more than eight years since they entered.

Not sure if they recalled all but I was told that they had burned through a large portion of the list. High rates of people turning down recall, found better Jobs apparently, and the rate of rejection is more likley to increase as you go futher down the list wher guys have lesss years. With the $75K buyout they may have cleared the list.

Has DL recalled all the people they laid off in the BK? No. Has NW recalled all the people or DL that were laid off when NW filed BK? No.

I believe Delta has been having the same experience as UAL.

Only AA did and the TWU had negotiated a contract that would have paid us number two in the industry two years ago. But you recommended a no vote because BK was a scare tactic.

More accusations without facts to back it up, I recommended a NO because it was an inferior offer. Same as now, once again you recommend a YES. management is out telling the line guys they need to vote YES so they can outource OH and with the savings bring the line guys up to industry standards in three years(because it would take three years to find places to do the work). The truthful part is that a YES vote would allow them to outsource as much OH as they want and up to 15% of Line Maint.

 

[Bob Owens]

I would like to see the calculations on VC, Holiday, and SK value. MBA Bob calculations and methodologies have been suspect for sometime now.

Very basic, no MBA needed. take the top number and divide it by 2080, the number of straight time hours worked in a year. I then used that number to come up with the values for the Holidays, sick and vacation for a 20 year worker.

When we were getting 2.5x for 10 holidays we would end up with an additional 120hours of pay if we worked all those Holidays, we now only get 20 hours extra pay per year for working those days. This is real money that we saw in our annual pay. The vacation is done the same way, but it adds value, not actual cash because you are getting paid as if you worked , same with sick time.

The chart gives a very clear precise picture of where we as individuals stand, you keep saying that its OK for us to discount our labor and work for less because by doing so AA can employ more people, well that the same arguement that anti-union forces that want to do away with the minimum wage make, they say if they could pay workers less than minimum wage that they could hire more workers. Do you advocate eliminating the minimum wage so employers can hire more workers at lower wages? If you do then you are not a Union man, and when Union Leaders say that we shopuld be OK with working for $16,000 less per year than United because it means that AA"may" keep more people working then those people have no business calling themselves Union Leaders. Layoffs usck, but AA has built a business model around double digit Overtime, want to save jobs, get everyone to turn down OT, dont get everyone to work for less because the company will simply pocket the money and layoff anyway.

 

[Bob Owens]

What was AA's response when you offered to tear up your contract and work under jetBlue's terms (and workrules) in exchange for jetBlue's payscale?

The offer was never made, besides Jet Blue is non-union so we dont really know what the terms are other than what we hear. For the most part the working conditions are not that different than what we have, if not they would have become Union by now.

 

[Flying low]

There you go again, saying that our members have the maturity level and Judgement of High School kids.

Actually, there are several that post here that sound like 3rd grade playground mentality. Resort to name calling as soon as they get upset. Usually an AMFA supporter yelling at a TWU supporter.

 

[Bob Owens]

You still don't get it. The BK process is a way to reduce costs. If that number is $200M for example, then AA proposes a plan on how to get there. For whatever reason they proposed the 3/22 term sheet with all its nasty rules and wage rates. If you are suggesting we should have gotten the pay rates up then you would need to exchange something to keep within the confines of the $200M goal (still an example). You are arguing what? Values? I guarantee the judge will give that some weight but not enough to get the wages you want. That said then the only thing to do to get all the way to the wage you want is outsource something. The HC's? LC's? Mods? BC's? CFP's? Close Class IIs? What? You can't raise everyone's wages without giving up something somewhere else. If you are arguing that all AA's values all BS then you have already lost the argument. The UCC is never going to agree to any contract that drives up or keeps costs flat. They will propose their POR at the end of exclusivity and it could be much worse than what AA is proposing. Wake up Bob.

You dont get it, the language in the deal will allow them to do everything that you say we should fear and we arent even getting credit for the savings. Remember 2003? They eliminated 5000 jobs but we only got credit for 1200. The fleet may have shrunk but their revenues soared. Now we are faced with a new Fleet that not only is projected to have a 10 year holiday on heav maint but that there is no language saying that we ever will do those overhauls. Even if we do get the work they wont need as many workers. So as the MD-80s and 757s go away the company will, by virtue of its 35% of Maintenence spend language, be able to outsource way more than 4500 jobs- thats why they are demanding we give up system protection as well. Now you may claim that the 35% keeps us below UAL, but UAL has language that keeps its narrowbody OH in the US, we dont, AA can ship ALL their outsourcing overseas. Because UAL confines NB to the US they are being forced to bring more work back in house, AA wont have that restriction, with the agreement you advocate they can outsource overseas which would allow a much larger volume of work to be outsourced before they hit the 35% cap, because that 35% cap formula include Line maintenance, and lets not forget that if they bail out of TAESL they can adjust the cap "accordingly". Line maint outsourcing has a 15% cap, so in reality the amount of outsoucing for OH is unlimited. If they do as you mentioned a while back, and do more work on the line, such as sectional checks that would allow them to outsource even more OH, and if they can outsource it overseas that would allow them to outsource it at much greater rate than one for one with the line. What is WNs "maintenance spend " ratio? If Teasl goes away, and the company determines that TAESL made up 20% of the "spend" our cap would go up to 55%. At 55% maint spend AA could outsource all their OH and without system protection they could have us down to 3500 mechanics. So our ratio of mechanics to airplanes would be lower than UALs but those of us who didnt get laid off, (possibly)you and I, would be making a lot less money too.

By saying YES we are putting in place everything AA needs to get rid of OH and we are giving them six years to do it. If we vote no they can abrogate and do it if they can find places to send the work but dont have the luxury of six years to do it. They still have to strike a deal.

 

[Bob Owens]

I recall reading a statement recently from Bob Owens giving us one of his famous predictions. If we turn down the T/A the judge will force AA to have you revote before he abrogates the contract. So now you know what's going to happen! Bob always has all the answers.

I didnt say that, you are totally clueless, time to do a realityck, the TWU would force us to revote if the pilots accept. Thats what I said.