New Flight Attendant Wages

[Fly]

And this is the international pay scale for United


04/01/02 05/01/03 05/01/07 05/01/08 04/30/09
1st year $21.53 $19.59 $19.98 $20.38 $20.79
2nd year $22.72 $20.68 $21.09 $21.51 $21.94
3rd year $24.14 $21.97 $22.41 $22.86 $23.32
4th year $24.80 $22.57 $23.02 $23.48 $23.95
5th year $28.02 $25.50 $26.01 $26.53 $27.06
6th year $40.12 $36.51 $37.24 $37.98 $38.74
7th year $42.04 $38.26 $39.03 $39.81 $40.61
8th year $42.90 $39.04 $39.82 $40.62 $41.43
9th year $44.31 $40.32 $41.13 $41.95 $42.79
10th year $45.17 $41.10 $41.92 $42.76 $43.62
11th year $46.20 $42.04 $42.88 $43.74 $44.61
12th year $47.33 $43.07 $43.93 $44.81 $45.71
13th year $48.24 $43.90 $44.78 $45.68 $46.59
14th year $48.87 $44.47 $45.36 $46.27 $47.20

 

[WorldTraveler]

Fly,
Looks like you are on a crusade to convince the world that UA flight attendants have it better but that is not a convincing or accurate story at all.

IN FACT, without a union, DL domestic flight attendants are doing better than their counterparts at their two largest competitors. And given that DL and all but CO are majority domestic airlines, the average compensation for all DL flight attendants is above if not close to UA flight attendants as a whole. Is that not true, Ms. FLY?

I'm still not mad at you but I do expect you to post honest, factual information or at least admit when the truth does not favor your position. Unless you are willing to honestly do that, you will be marginalized and trivialized as a whining, special interest horn that cannot be trusted to present a balanced perspective. And dearie, whether you believe it or not, you are out of touch with the reality of the VAST majority of people in the working world if you did not know your pay rate until recently.

Thank you, jim, mepas, and bear for posting the facts that can be used to make an honest assessment.

Although we didn't get info on other carriers, I think we can guess where they fall. If anyone has that information based on the current contracts at those carriers, please post it in the interest of an honest assessment of how Delta employees fare after these pay cuts which is how this post turns out whether Fly intended that or not.

 

[Bear96]

3) click on the link on the right hand margin that says "Be sure to reference the 2005-2010 FA agreement when studying contractual provisions"

[post="304850"][/post]​

D'ohhh! I missed that part ...

Fly, it looks like you did what I did. The current international rates are (following wepas' instructions -- thanks wepas! ):

International Hourly Rates

YEAR 5/1/2003 1/7/2005 5/1/2007 5/1/2008 1/1/2009
1 $19.59 $17.73 $18.08 $18.45 $18.81
2 $20.68 $18.72 $19.09 $19.47 $19.86
3 $21.97 $19.88 $20.28 $20.69 $21.10
4 $22.57 $20.43 $20.83 $21.25 $21.68
5 $25.50 $23.08 $23.54 $24.01 $24.49
6 $36.51 $33.04 $33.70 $34.38 $35.06
7 $38.26 $34.63 $35.32 $36.02 $36.74
8 $39.04 $35.33 $36.04 $36.76 $37.49
9 $40.32 $36.49 $37.22 $37.96 $38.72
10 $41.10 $37.20 $37.94 $38.70 $39.47
11 $42.04 $38.05 $38.81 $39.58 $40.37
12 $43.07 $38.98 $39.76 $40.55 $41.36
13 $43.90 $39.73 $40.52 $41.33 $42.16
14 $44.47 $40.25 $41.05 $41.87 $42.71

 

[Bear96]

IN FACT, without a union, DL domestic flight attendants are doing better than their counterparts at their two largest competitors.

I would have to disagree with that.

First, maybe I am reading it wrong, but it looks like at DL, domestic and int'l pay rates are going to be the same. As you can see from the int'l rates at UA, they are higher than DL's rates, and a significant portion of UA's F/As fly international.

Second, it is not that the DL work rules info on my other post didn't come throught. The point was that DL DOESN'T HAVE ANY. When you look at rest provisions, duty time limits, etc., I am pretty sure UA still comes out way ahead.

Finally, you are totally ignoring other protections unionized workers have in grievance / termination proceedings.

But I am sure we will just have to agree to disagree about whether DL F/As are "doing better."

you will be marginalized and trivialized as a whining, special interest horn that cannot be trusted to present a balanced perspective.

OMG coming from you WT, now that was funny!

 

[Fly]

WT, you have some serious issues. I posted the paycuts (with NO editorials). It's news "dearie". Like it or not. BTW, I wouldn't say that Delta is doing better when I make $ 40.25 and their new paycut is $39.49. Not a big difference by no means, but interesting that you found that to be better than mine. (I'm assuming that Delta tops out at 12 years by the new rates, whereas UAL tops out at 14 years. Regardless, top out is top out pay) So, how do you figure?

You spent the last year telling us how bad it was for mean, old United and how we'd probably never get out of bk (because most don't you pointed out). Now that the pendulum has shifted, you decided to call a truce with the UAL people but some of us aren't willing to play your little "lovefest" game with you. Makes you angry, does it? Grow some buddy and stop trying to belittle me to make yourself feel better.

For those interested, here is Continental's flight attendant contract. Now THEY have some nice payscales:

Continental Contract

 

[B.O.B.]

Here are American Airlines Flight Attendant rates of pay. We have regular pay and incentive pay. I have posted both Domestic and International pay rates.


BASE RATES OF PAY - DOMESTIC
Hourly Base rates of pay for seventy (70) hours:

COMPENSATION HOURLY RATES

Effective 1/1/03 5/1/03 5/1/04 5/1/05 5/1/06 5/1/07 5/1/08

1st year $22.26 $18.79 $19.07 $19.36 $19.65 $19.94 $20.24
2 nd year $24.17 $20.40 $20.71 $21.02 $21.34 $21.66 $21.98
3 rd year $26.18 $22.10 $22.43 $22.77 $23.11 $23.46 $23.81
4 th year $27.55 $23.25 $23.60 $23.95 $24.31 $24.67 $25.04
5 th year $30.76 $25.96 $26.35 $26.75 $27.15 $27.56 $27.97
6 th year $35.54 $30.00 $30.45 $30.91 $31.37 $31.84 $32.32
7 th year $38.84 $32.44 $32.93 $33.42 $33.92 $34.43 $34.95
8 th year $40.51 $34.19 $34.70 $35.22 $35.75 $36.29 $36.83
9 th year $42.20 $35.62 $36.15 $36.69 $37.24 $37.80 $38.37
10th year $43.88 $37.03 $37.59 $38.15 $38.72 $39.30 $39.89
11th year $45.32 $38.25 $38.82 $39.40 $39.99 $40.59 $41.20
12th year $46.92 $39.60 $40.19 $40.79 $41.40 $42.02 $42.65
13th year $48.20 $40.68 $41.29 $41.91 $42.54 $43.18 $43.83
14th year $49.40 $41.69 $42.32 $42.95 $43.59 $44.24 $44.90
15th year $50.59 $42.70 $43.34 $43.99 $44.65 $45.32 $46.00

INCENTIVE HOURLY RATES OF PAY - DOMESTIC
Hourly Incentive rates of pay for hours in excess of seventy (70) hours:

COMPENSATION

Effective 1/1/03 5/1/03 5/1/04 5/1/05 5/1/06 5/1/07 5/1/08

1st year $22.26 $18.79 $19.07 $19.36 $19.65 $19.94 $20.24
2 nd year $24.17 $20.40 $20.71 $21.02 $21.34 $21.66 $21.98
3 rd year $26.18 $22.10 $22.43 $22.77 $23.11 $23.46 $23.81
4 th year $27.55 $23.25 $23.60 $23.95 $24.31 $24.67 $25.04
5 th year $30.76 $25.96 $26.35 $26.75 $27.15 $27.56 $27.97
6 th year $35.54 $30.00 $30.45 $30.91 $31.37 $31.84 $32.32
7 th year $38.84 $32.44 $32.93 $33.42 $33.92 $34.43 $34.95
8 th year $40.51 $34.19 $34.70 $35.22 $35.75 $36.29 $36.83
9 th year $42.20 $35.62 $36.15 $36.69 $37.24 $37.80 $38.37
10th year $43.88 $37.03 $37.59 $38.15 $38.72 $39.30 $39.89
11th year $45.32 $38.25 $38.82 $39.40 $39.99 $40.59 $41.20
12th year $46.92 $39.60 $40.19 $40.79 $41.40 $42.02 $42.65
13th year $48.20 $40.68 $41.29 $41.91 $42.54 $43.18 $43.83
14th year $49.40 $41.69 $42.32 $42.95 $43.59 $44.24 $44.90
15th year $50.59 $42.70 $43.34 $43.99 $44.65 $45.32 $46.00
1 st year $25.60 $21.61 $21.93 $22.26 $22.60 $22.93 $23.28
2 nd year $27.80 $23.46 $23.82 $24.17 $24.54 $24.91 $25.28
3 rd year $30.11 $25.42 $25.79 $26.19 $26.58 $26.98 $27.38
4 th year $31.68 $26.74 $27.14 $27.54 $27.96 $28.37 $28.80
5 th year $35.37 $29.85 $30.30 $30.76 $31.22 $31.69 $32.17
6 th year $40.87 $34.50 $35.02 $35.55 $36.08 $36.62 $37.17
7 th year $44.21 $37.31 $37.87 $38.43 $39.01 $39.59 $40.19
8 th year $46.59 $39.32 $39.91 $40.50 $41.11 $41.73 $42.35
9 th year $48.53 $40.96 $41.57 $42.19 $42.83 $43.47 $44.13
10th year $50.46 $42.58 $43.23 $43.87 $44.53 $45.20 $45.87
11th year $52.12 $43.99 $44.64 $45.31 $45.99 $46.68 $47.38
12th year $53.96 $45.54 $46.22 $46.91 $47.61 $48.32 $49.05
13th year $55.43 $46.78 $47.48 $48.20 $48.92 $49.66 $50.40
14th year $56.81 $47.94 $48.67 $49.39 $50.13 $50.88 $51.64
15th year $58.18 $49.11 $49.84 $50.59 $51.35 $52.12 $52.90


BASE RATES OF PAY - INTERNATIONAL
Hourly Base rates of pay for seventy (70) hours:

Effective 1/1/03 5/1/03 5/1/04 5/1/05 5/1/06 5/1/07 5/1/08

1 st year $24.34 $20.54 $20.85 $21.16 $21.48 $21.80 $22.13
2 nd year $25.84 $21.81 $22.14 $22.47 $22.81 $23.15 $23.50
3 rd year $27.55 $23.25 $23.60 $23.95 $24.31 $24.67 $25.04
4 th year $29.03 $24.50 $24.87 $25.24 $25.62 $26.00 $26.39
5 th year $33.51 $28.28 $28.70 $29.13 $29.57 $30.01 $30.46
6 th year $37.23 $31.42 $31.89 $32.37 $32.86 $33.35 $33.85
7 th year $41.40 $34.94 $35.46 $35.99 $36.53 $37.08 $37.64
8 th year $43.86 $37.02 $37.58 $38.14 $38.71 $39.29 $39.88
9 th year $45.57 $38.46 $39.04 $39.63 $40.22 $40.82 $41.43
10th year $46.98 $39.65 $40.24 $40.84 $41.45 $42.07 $42.70
11th year $48.69 $41.09 $41.71 $42.34 $42.98 $43.62 $44.27
12th year $50.33 $42.48 $43.12 $43.77 $44.43 $45.10 $45.78
13th year $52.25 $44.10 $44.76 $45.43 $46.11 $46.80 $47.50
14th year $53.15 $44.86 $45.53 $46.21 $46.90 $47.60 $48.31
15th year $54.05 $45.62 $46.30 $46.99 $47.69 $48.41 $49.14


INCENTIVE HOURLY RATES OF PAY - INTERNATIONAL
Hourly Incentive rates of pay for hours in excess of seventy (70) hours:

Effective 1/1/03 5/1/03 5/1/04 5/1/05 5/1/06 5/1/07 5/1/08

1 st year $27.99 $23.62 $23.98 $24.33 $24.70 $25.07 $25.45
2 nd year $29.72 $25.08 $25.46 $25.84 $26.23 $26.62 $27.03
3 rd year $31.68 $26.74 $27.14 $27.54 $27.96 $28.37 $28.80
4 th year $33.38 $28.18 $28.60 $29.03 $29.46 $29.90 $30.35
5 th year $38.54 $32.52 $33.01 $33.50 $34.01 $34.51 $35.03
6 th year $42.81 $36.13 $36.67 $37.23 $37.79 $38.35 $38.93
7 th year $47.61 $40.18 $40.78 $41.39 $42.01 $42.64 $43.29
8 th year $50.44 $42.57 $43.22 $43.86 $44.52 $45.18 $45.86
9 th year $52.41 $44.23 $44.90 $45.57 $46.25 $46.94 $47.64
10th year $54.03 $45.60 $46.28 $46.97 $47.67 $48.38 $49.11
11th year $55.99 $47.25 $47.97 $48.69 $49.43 $50.16 $50.91
12th year $57.88 $48.85 $49.59 $50.34 $51.09 $51.87 $52.65
13th year $60.09 $50.72 $51.47 $52.24 $53.03 $53.82 $54.63
14th year $61.12 $51.59 $52.36 $53.14 $53.94 $54.74 $55.56
15th year $62.16 $52.46 $53.25 $54.04 $54.84 $55.67 $56.51

 

[WorldTraveler]

All,
thank you for the information. These numbers tell me several things:
1. DL's flight attendants are still very much competitive with most other large airlines. If other employee groups are representative, DL employees have been overpaid for at least a couple years. Since some of the DL mechanics say they are at the bottom when compared with other airlines, it is probably safe to not to assume all DL employee groups are comparably paid relative to other airlines' employees.
2. CO is the most international US airline; they derive almost 50% of their REVENUE from international operations but that doesn't say that they have 50% of their flight attendants who fly international routes and are paid international rates. The only way to know the impact of these pay rates relative to other carriers is by knowing how many flight attendants at each carrier actually FLY international routes. Given that international flights are more efficient and generate higher revenue than comparable block hour domestic flights, the ratio of domestic to int'l F/As at all carriers is less than the percent of revenue that carrier derives from international operations. Right now, CO has the highest percentage. AA, NW, and UA are in the middle at about 40% and DL and US are at the back with 25% of revenue coming from international. DL has said that it will become significantly more international so their international growth will come at the same flight attendant cost as domestic growth.
3. DL has obviously chosen not to offer a premium for international flying, a significant change in industry compensation philosophy that will likely reduce the incentive for DL flight attendants to fly all the way across the country (over several bases) to fly international routes from ATL, CVG, and JFK while relegating NYC flight attendants to transcon and Florida turns. Quite frankly, I'm looking forward to a little mixing up of the F/A demographics on future flights.
4. Just because Delta flight attendants do not have a contract does not mean they do not have work rules. While Delta's finance people might like all Delta employees to work 168 hours per week, their HR people know they can't do that and provide appropriate scheduling guidelines. As evidenced by the list of work rules Fly posted, work rules are not a free for all at Delta.


Fly,
You are free to make any assessment of DL's position that you wish, just as I have done about UA's. UA has done a very good job of defying the laws of airline bankruptcy and I commend you and your company for doing that. There is no lovefest necessary in admitting that another company is doing something well and in fact thumbing their noses at an aweful lot of prognasticators who did not believe UA had a viable future. Further, I still do not believe UA has a cost structure necessary to compete with a restructured DL and NW, airlines that have had much lower costs for much of their existence. I will also remind you that DL ALREADY has the lowest costs in the legacy sector and it is very likely based on the $3B in costs that they are going to get out of their organization that they will have costs 15-20% below where UA is today. That kind of cost disadvantage is simply not sustainable given the overlap that currently exists and will only grow between all of the legacy carriers. UA may be able to ignore AirTran's cost advantage whiel focusing on Frontier but UA cannot ignore DL's. NW is also very committed to getting costs out by substantially changing the whole way US airlines operate; even though they have not laid forth cost reduction targets, there is no doubt that they will significantly undercut UA. I am not going to publicly predict UA's future at this point, but I can assure you they (and you) are not immune from significantly more changes in order to compete. I'm sure that is the last thing you want to hear after two years of cuts and three years of bankruptcy but it is the truth.

 

[Bear96]

... Let me shorten / translate that last post by WT a bit.

So, in other words (as I said on another post in this thread):

DL is great, DL is good, DL management is just and wise and UA management is evil incarnate / a bunch of bumbling nincompoops, DL pays the best no matter what the dang "numbers" say, the DL BK is all part of The Plan, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, .............

Did I get that about right?

you will be marginalized and trivialized as a whining, special interest horn that cannot be trusted to present a balanced perspective.

Keep going, though, WT. This is fun!

 

[hulagirl]

Fly,
I agree with your post regarding Continental's contract. It IS a beautiful thing.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bear,
you're better off bringing the data and let others interpret it.

 

[ualdriver]

... Let me shorten / translate that last post by WT a bit.

So, in other words (as I said on another post in this thread):
Did I get that about right?
              
Keep going, though, WT.  This is fun! 

[post="305299"][/post]​

I love his choices of wording as well. For example, UAL "defies" the laws of bankruptcy while DAL, I'm sure, will just skate through with a big plan and all the right answers. Big smiles, I'm sure, all around as DAL screws its creditors and employees!

UAL spends 3 years in bankruptcy and yet, "doesn't have the cost structure to compete against a reorganized DAL and NWA" as if DAL is going to magically exit bankruptcy with JetBlue costs while the rest of the industry just flounders around aimlessly. He implies that DAL and NWA have had much lower costs than UAL for "much of their existence" yet somehow, all those other "loser" airlines out there were able to compete and grow for decades despite this implied huge advantage DAL has had all this time. Go figure. And, UH-OH! They're about to regain (through bankruptcy) that very same "advantage" that put them in this fine financial position they're in now. More incredible pain for DAL's competitors, perhaps?

I remember he was telling us on the UAL forum how "you can't shrink to profitability" yet DAL, somehow, is going to do just that while they're in bankruptcy. I'm telling you, there's some magic happening over there in Hot-lanta.

It's funny there, World Traveler, that you make the statement, "you're better off bringing the data and let others interpret it." For example, how many times did I provide you links refuting your repeated statements that UAL couldn't find exit financing, yet you kept on posting it? I'd have so much fun on this DAL thread (just like you did on our little UAL forum) if there were just a few more hours in the day.......

 

[WorldTraveler]

ualdriver,
you might want to check today's issue of Aviation Daily. It contains info on costs for the second quarter. For a company that has spent 3 years in bankruptcy, it doesn't speak very favorably about UA. In fact, it says that DL already has lower costs than UA - and that was 3 months before DL filed for bankruptcy. And it doesn't say that UA has a revenue advantage except on the domestic system which is exactly where UA is most vulnerable to further LCC incursion; in fact, UA's domestic revenue advantage amounts to about 9% over Delta - not exactly a commanding lead for a carrier that supposedly has such a great revenue advantage when compared with one that has LCCs in every one of its significant markets.

Glad you're having fun. You should know that my greatest goal in life is getting a rise out of you; second only to Fly, I might add.

Sadly, though, you and Fly don't get it. You have every right to believe that your sacrifice has turned UA around but it just hasn't happened. Sadly, you won't know how deficient UA's reorg plan is until you are out of bankruptcy and see how well DL and NW reorganize. Oh and I might also mention that the 800 pound gorilla from Texas (you know the one that overlaps on about 95% of UA's network) has considerably lower costs than UA's.

This is a marathon, not a sprint. We'll see where UA ends up in 5 years but I don't think I would be buying any shares in that reorganized company just yet.

Now, tell me what this has to do with Delta flight attendant wages. I know - it says that DL flight attendants might be MUCH better paid than their Chicago based counterparts before long.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

In fact, it says that DL already has lower costs than UA - and that was 3 months before DL filed for bankruptcy.


DL and NWA entered BK under a MUCH different set of circumstances. Everyone else, prior, entered because they HAD to. DL and NWA entered as the result of business decisions. This does not mean they do not have a tough road ahead, especially DL. NWA probably has the most savvy management of ANY domestic airline, as I like to say...crazy like a fox! As a U employee, I have a right to be a little optimistic on just about everything airline related. Other than Ifly, I think we all have a shot (if Zombie U can make it, just about anyone can!) Good luck guys. Greeter.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Greeter,
thanks for your usual concise wisdom.

NW is savvy like a crazy fox but I'm afraid I can't agree that they have made some major strategic blunders that will make it much more difficult for them to reorganize. Most notable among their blunders is their lack of investment in fleet - esp. longhaul aircraft capable of serving their key markets.

I know lots of people think I'm hopelessly optimistic about DL but their problems can be fixed relatively easy when you consider that many of them were made by them - namely too much domestic capacity in heavy leisure markets, focus on connecting traffic, and too little international traffic. DL has also significantly underutilized its fleet. No other airline can add dozens of transatlantic routes without buying or leasing a single aircraft. And they could easily fly 3 more transpacific flights even with their meager fleet of 777s.

I'm sure you and the entire US/AWA family are waiting for the clock to strike 12 (I guess that's when it all becomes official). Congrats on the new chapter in your life. I trust you are rewarded with success for all of your sacrifices. Oh... and watch out for those wolves that talk about spreading LUV but are really out to kill sheep.

 

[Cosmo]

And they could easily fly 3 more transpacific flights even with their meager fleet of 777s.

It's a minor point, but that's not correct. With its fleet of only eight B777s, Delta allocates three aircraft to the ATL-NRT service (including a spare) and could add only two more daily transpacific flights (Seoul? China?) because each such round trip flight requires two aircraft. Plus, that would eliminate four of Delta's five current daily transatlantic flights (ATL to CDG twice, to FRA once and to MXP once, along with CVG to CDG once).

So if Delta ever hopes to be a major player in the transpacific market, it needs to greatly increase its large widebody (i.e., B777) fleet. Interestingly, this mirrors one of your criticisms of Northwest's fleet planning.