you might want to check today's issue of Aviation Daily.
Sorry, I don't get Aviation Daily. Feel free to post the info and I'll compare the data against both airline's latest 10Q's (posted below).
It contains info on costs for the second quarter. For a company that has spent 3 years in bankruptcy, it doesn't speak very favorably about UA.
No way! There's a publication out there that doesn't speak favorably about United Airlines? You've GOT to be kidding!
And as an aside, World, Delta has been in a quasi-bankrupt state for well over a year now. So when you make a comparison between UAL's costs and DAL's costs (and even AMR's) and say that UAL's been in bankruptcy and DAL and AMR haven't been in "bankruptcy," I beg to differ. Remember several months back when DAL's executives were in the press saying that they weren't sure if DAL would be able to successfully reorganize in "bankruptcy" because they didn't know if they would have enough unencombered assets to obtain meaningful DIP financing? The reason they stated that is because instead of actually going down to the courthouse and filing Chapter 11, they just kept using the threat of bankruptcy against their creditors, employees, etc., to extract cost cuts through the much vaunted "transformation plan" while leveraging everything down to the kitchen sink in the employee cafeteria. DAL is just lucky that GE and AMEX were willing partners in the game until the recent filing. UAL's creditors weren't so accommodating, especially since we were the first ones in and didn't have anyone else to point to and use as a hammer for cost cutting. DAL and AMR's (among others) creditors/vendors/employees saw what was happening over at UAL and played ball.
In fact, it says that DL already has lower costs than UA - and that was 3 months before DL filed for bankruptcy. And it doesn't say that UA has a revenue advantage except on the domestic system which is exactly where UA is most vulnerable to further LCC incursion; in fact, UA's domestic revenue advantage amounts to about 9% over Delta - not exactly a commanding lead for a carrier that supposedly has such a great revenue advantage when compared with one that has LCCs in every one of its significant markets.
Last 6 months ending June 30, 2005 from their respective 10Q's.......Mainline CASM....
DAL 10.74 cents/seat mile
UAL 10.39 cents/seat mile
As far as the LCC competition goes, do you really think DAL is the only airline out there with significant LCC competition already?
Glad you're having fun. Sadly, though, you and Fly don't get it. You have every right to believe that your sacrifice has turned UA around but it just hasn't happened. Sadly, you won't know how deficient UA's reorg plan is until you are out of bankruptcy and see how well DL and NW reorganize.
Actually, I'm having fun flying airplanes and reading about airline financials and poking holes in your theories. Heck, I wouldn't even know your screenname and you hadn't posted some ridiculous stuff over on the UAL forum, so it's kind of funny that you're stating that I "don't get it." Unfortunately, I'm not sure you do. You think DAL is going to exit bankruptcy with SWA or JetBlue style costs and you're sadly mistaken. But don't believe me- I wouldn't. Just wait. 6 or 7 cents a seat mile, including fuel, ain't gonna happen for our boys in ATL, IF they exit bankruptcy at all.
And wow, our POR is deficient? Did you read about that in USA Today or Aviation Daily? In offices all over the world, there are bankers and MBA's and CFA's and high-priced consultants examing the airline industry and UAL's books, right down to the cell on each spreadsheet. They have computers, tables upon tables of spreadsheets and graphs with all kinds of big numbers all over them. Do you think, just for a second, that perhaps when examing (and heck, INFLUENCING) UAL's POR that maybe, just maybe, they took a stab at what the airline industry might look like when DAL and NWA exit bankruptcy in the up and coming months or years? Whaddya think? I bet they did. And despite these HUGE advantages that you claim NWA and DAL are going to have, they loaned us 2 billion dollars based upon our POR. Yet YOU think its deficient? No offense, but I'm going to think the guys with the thousand dollar suits are probably a little closer to airline economic reality than you. It's great, though, that you're such a big cheerleader for DAL. They're a great group of people and they need people to point out the many good things about their company.
Oh and I might also mention that the 800 pound gorilla from Texas (you know the one that overlaps on about 95% of UA's network) has considerably lower costs than UA's.
Hmmm........for the last 6 months of 2005 from each airlines most recent 10Q....
9.92 mainline CASM AMR
10.39 mainline CASM UAL
You could probably throw another 3/4 of a cent to a cent on there for both of them to include their express carriers. Just a wag, though. Includes fuel, too.
Less? Sure. Considerable? Well........above you talk about the 9% unit revenue premium that UAL commands as "not exactly a commanding lead." So I guess the 4.5% advantage of unit costs that AMR enjoys falls in that "not exactly a commanding lead" ballpark as well?
And actually, UAL used to be referred to as the 800 pound gorilla, not AMR. But the doctor said we had to lose some weight. Now we're just a 400 pound gorilla that eats salad and does yoga. But we're better for it. Really.
This is a marathon, not a sprint.
Oh good. So now you finally understand why UAL took its time in bankruptcy.
We'll see where UA ends up in 5 years but I don't think I would be buying any shares in that reorganized company just yet.
I wouldn't buy a dime of UAL stock either, reorganized or not. I'll promptly be selling the stock I will be receiving if UAL ever gets out of bankruptcy! (which means it should skyrocket the day after I sell it)
Sorry, I don't get Aviation Daily. Feel free to post the info and I'll compare the data against both airline's latest 10Q's (posted below).
It contains info on costs for the second quarter. For a company that has spent 3 years in bankruptcy, it doesn't speak very favorably about UA.
No way! There's a publication out there that doesn't speak favorably about United Airlines? You've GOT to be kidding!
And as an aside, World, Delta has been in a quasi-bankrupt state for well over a year now. So when you make a comparison between UAL's costs and DAL's costs (and even AMR's) and say that UAL's been in bankruptcy and DAL and AMR haven't been in "bankruptcy," I beg to differ. Remember several months back when DAL's executives were in the press saying that they weren't sure if DAL would be able to successfully reorganize in "bankruptcy" because they didn't know if they would have enough unencombered assets to obtain meaningful DIP financing? The reason they stated that is because instead of actually going down to the courthouse and filing Chapter 11, they just kept using the threat of bankruptcy against their creditors, employees, etc., to extract cost cuts through the much vaunted "transformation plan" while leveraging everything down to the kitchen sink in the employee cafeteria. DAL is just lucky that GE and AMEX were willing partners in the game until the recent filing. UAL's creditors weren't so accommodating, especially since we were the first ones in and didn't have anyone else to point to and use as a hammer for cost cutting. DAL and AMR's (among others) creditors/vendors/employees saw what was happening over at UAL and played ball.
In fact, it says that DL already has lower costs than UA - and that was 3 months before DL filed for bankruptcy. And it doesn't say that UA has a revenue advantage except on the domestic system which is exactly where UA is most vulnerable to further LCC incursion; in fact, UA's domestic revenue advantage amounts to about 9% over Delta - not exactly a commanding lead for a carrier that supposedly has such a great revenue advantage when compared with one that has LCCs in every one of its significant markets.
Last 6 months ending June 30, 2005 from their respective 10Q's.......Mainline CASM....
DAL 10.74 cents/seat mile
UAL 10.39 cents/seat mile
As far as the LCC competition goes, do you really think DAL is the only airline out there with significant LCC competition already?
Glad you're having fun. Sadly, though, you and Fly don't get it. You have every right to believe that your sacrifice has turned UA around but it just hasn't happened. Sadly, you won't know how deficient UA's reorg plan is until you are out of bankruptcy and see how well DL and NW reorganize.
Actually, I'm having fun flying airplanes and reading about airline financials and poking holes in your theories. Heck, I wouldn't even know your screenname and you hadn't posted some ridiculous stuff over on the UAL forum, so it's kind of funny that you're stating that I "don't get it." Unfortunately, I'm not sure you do. You think DAL is going to exit bankruptcy with SWA or JetBlue style costs and you're sadly mistaken. But don't believe me- I wouldn't. Just wait. 6 or 7 cents a seat mile, including fuel, ain't gonna happen for our boys in ATL, IF they exit bankruptcy at all.
And wow, our POR is deficient? Did you read about that in USA Today or Aviation Daily? In offices all over the world, there are bankers and MBA's and CFA's and high-priced consultants examing the airline industry and UAL's books, right down to the cell on each spreadsheet. They have computers, tables upon tables of spreadsheets and graphs with all kinds of big numbers all over them. Do you think, just for a second, that perhaps when examing (and heck, INFLUENCING) UAL's POR that maybe, just maybe, they took a stab at what the airline industry might look like when DAL and NWA exit bankruptcy in the up and coming months or years? Whaddya think? I bet they did. And despite these HUGE advantages that you claim NWA and DAL are going to have, they loaned us 2 billion dollars based upon our POR. Yet YOU think its deficient? No offense, but I'm going to think the guys with the thousand dollar suits are probably a little closer to airline economic reality than you. It's great, though, that you're such a big cheerleader for DAL. They're a great group of people and they need people to point out the many good things about their company.
Oh and I might also mention that the 800 pound gorilla from Texas (you know the one that overlaps on about 95% of UA's network) has considerably lower costs than UA's.
Hmmm........for the last 6 months of 2005 from each airlines most recent 10Q....
9.92 mainline CASM AMR
10.39 mainline CASM UAL
You could probably throw another 3/4 of a cent to a cent on there for both of them to include their express carriers. Just a wag, though. Includes fuel, too.
Less? Sure. Considerable? Well........above you talk about the 9% unit revenue premium that UAL commands as "not exactly a commanding lead." So I guess the 4.5% advantage of unit costs that AMR enjoys falls in that "not exactly a commanding lead" ballpark as well?
And actually, UAL used to be referred to as the 800 pound gorilla, not AMR. But the doctor said we had to lose some weight. Now we're just a 400 pound gorilla that eats salad and does yoga. But we're better for it. Really.
This is a marathon, not a sprint.
Oh good. So now you finally understand why UAL took its time in bankruptcy.
We'll see where UA ends up in 5 years but I don't think I would be buying any shares in that reorganized company just yet.
I wouldn't buy a dime of UAL stock either, reorganized or not. I'll promptly be selling the stock I will be receiving if UAL ever gets out of bankruptcy! (which means it should skyrocket the day after I sell it)