The Pilot TA

[TheDog2004]

In my amateur armchair monday morning QB opinion this will pass in a close vote. DALPA has just enough 'wins' - if they can call them that - to sell it to the membership without sounding too ridiculous. They can say it's better than what Delta was going to impose and therefore a win for their bargaining power, but in reality they aren't really that much better off than they would have been had Delta imposed their original terms. It IS better than those terms, but not by a remarkable amount.

It's only a 'win' for either side if it passes and a passing vote is a win for everyone at Delta regardless of the terms.

 

[Skymess]

Observations regarding recall and scope:

Recall- If the thought is to bring back people just to get a paycheck into their hands again, that doesn't make much sense. From a business perspective (not management or union), .

Scope- I understand the arguments against. Giving on the scope issue means handing over the benefits of future growth to contract carriers. However, like all of this, you have to look at the business issues at hand.

The quandary of all unions is where to draw the line between the membership's needs and the company's needs. Without the workers there would be no company, but without the company there would be no need for workers.

The foremost duty of the union is to its members first. They are the ones paying the dues. Therefore, the line has to be drawn more in favor of what is good for them vs. the company.

SCOPE is a big issue and the company is betting in favor of the pilots selling future jobs down the river to save current ones.

I think this will pass because it is not as bad as what was on that table. There are just going to be an awful lot of disgruntled pilots out there for awhile.

Advice to the pilots who are bitter, from one who went through a bad period of adjustment after my concessions were given:

If you don't decide to leave just remember that you are the one who chose to stay and you can make the best of it or you can make everyone around you ill as well as yourself if you stay mired in bitterness. Sounds annoying now, but it helped me out eventually when I started realizing that I was doing nothing but b!tching and feeling lousy all the time.

Think of it like a death. You mourn and then you move on.

 

[Ch. 12]

The quandary of all unions is where to draw the line between the membership's needs and the company's needs. Without the workers there would be no company, but without the company there would be no need for workers.

The foremost duty of the union is to its members first. They are the ones paying the dues. Therefore, the line has to be drawn more in favor of what is good for them vs. the company.

SCOPE is a big issue and the company is betting in favor of the pilots selling future jobs down the river to save current ones.

I think this will pass because it is not as bad as what was on that table. There are just going to be an awful lot of disgruntled pilots out there for awhile.

Advice to the pilots who are bitter, from one who went through a bad period of adjustment after my concessions were given:

If you don't decide to leave just remember that you are the one who chose to stay and you can make the best of it or you can make everyone around you ill as well as yourself if you stay mired in bitterness. Sounds annoying now, but it helped me out eventually when I started realizing that I was doing nothing but b!tching and feeling lousy all the time.

Think of it like a death. You mourn and then you move on.

Skymess-

Very good post from beginning to end. Thanks for your support.

-Ch. 12

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Advice to the pilots who are bitter, from one who went through a bad period of adjustment after my concessions were given:

If you don't decide to leave just remember that you are the one who chose to stay and you can make the best of it or you can make everyone around you ill as well as yourself if you stay mired in bitterness. Sounds annoying now, but it helped me out eventually when I started realizing that I was doing nothing but b!tching and feeling lousy all the time.

Think of it like a death. You mourn and then you move on.[/color]

Keep that advise in mind when they come back for more from you. The pilots didn't take anything close to what Delta asked for. They are going to get that number from someone.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The real focus is on rebuilding DL so there will be no reason to give them a reason to come back for more.

DL is on the verge of a turnaround and all its employees need to work to make sure that turnaround takes hold. AA employees have been able to keep management away from more cuts BECAUSE employees are running a good airline and are working with their management to keep AA at the top of the industry despite taking some sizable lumps. Even though AA and its employees have had a pretty adversarial relationship in the past, together they are recognizing the important of working together to make what is a pretty difficult industry the best it can be for both parties.

 

[Ch. 12]

Keep that advise in mind when they come back for more from you. The pilots didn't take anything close to what Delta asked for. They are going to get that number from someone.

You're killing me, Nostradamus. And if they don't go to the other work groups, are you going to incessently apologize or are you just trying to feed the union propoganda machine? I think the latter. WT is right that the plan will even out due to strides in revenue...not more cuts. It is just that the pilots have made it that much more difficult b/c an already agressive revenue figure has become even more agressive.

And it is funny that you keep presenting this argument ad nauseum (do you have anything else to say) and you present it as if we should be mad at management if they were to need cuts b/c the pilots wouldn't offer up what was necessary?!?! I think I'd know who to be mad at and that is b/c I have a memory that tells me who is responsible for what. Cause and effect.

But that being said...I don't think the TA will pass by large margins but I do think it will. I think that DL will need not only skill but luck when trying to attain higher revenue goals but it is still definitely doable. One good thing about oil prices sky-rocketing is that the consumer is finally willing to pay more. Unfortunately, the airlines are also paying more for fuel. Anyways...I don't see more wage cuts from any employees given the current situation. I do see an immediate need to get beyond the negotiations issues, though, and for DL's employees to once again work together...and to also do so with management. Who knows what the future will bring but there is alot more to it than your repeated one line about "who is going to pay". Step back and see the forest...get away from the tree.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

ok, I will ABSOLUTELY apologize if I'm wrong. Will you apologize if you are forced to take more cuts? (or will you run and hide like you did the week before the pilot's TA came out?)

 

[john john]

“I don't see more wage cuts from any employees given the current situation. I do see an immediate need to get beyond the negotiations issues, though, and for DL's employees to once again work together...and to also do so with management. Who knows what the future will bring butâ€￾
you will get a raise
On January 1, 2007, rates will be increased 1.5%.
• On January 1, 2008, rates will increase by at least 1.5%, and may increase up to
6% based on corporate financial performance.
• On January 1, 2009, rates will increase by at least 1.5% above the minimum 2008
rates, and may increase up to 6% above the actual 2008 rates, based on corporate
financial performance.
• On December 31, 2009 rates will increase another 1%.

 

[Skymess]

Keep that advise in mind when they come back for more from you. The pilots didn't take anything close to what Delta asked for. They are going to get that number from someone.

Are you saying they are coming back for more from AA workers or DAL workers? I work for AA, in case you didn't know.

 

[Ch. 12]

ok, I will ABSOLUTELY apologize if I'm wrong. Will you apologize if you are forced to take more cuts? (or will you run and hide like you did the week before the pilot's TA came out?)

Please refer to the whole thread from that week (which I started) where I stated that I would not debate the pilot issues during the week when negotiations should have been at their peak. Call it "professionalism" if you will. Many others on both sides of the issue did the same. I would have thought that somebody that claims to hang on every word of my posts (even drawing statements that I never said about UA from mere grains of sand in the past) would have seen that one. So yeah...if you call respecting both sides by giving them a breather from distractions of debates that don't serve to correct any issues "running and hiding", that is what I and the other professionals on this board did.

I am not the one saying over and over that anybody will or won't take cuts. Again...if anybody else has to...I wouldn't blame it on mgmt. You're pretty near-sighted if that's the way you see it. Again...cause and effect. But I HAVE said that "under the current circumstances", I don't forsee other groups taking further cuts. That means that unless there is another shock to the system (i.e. $7/gallon fuel or a new Independence Air such as Virgin America destroying yields on a large scale), the difference will be made up in other ways such as revenue gains. I'm not the one that tries to use the situation to try to stir more propoganda. It's like you feel a need to try to drum up more drama when the last drama has subsided. What is wrong with not having drama once in a whil?. We can speculate 'till we're blue in the face about a scenario for everything but that doesn't get anything done.

 

[markkus757]

This vote will go like every other one. Everyone will talk all big and bad in public about how it sucks and they'll vote against it. Privately, they'll realize that they will have no job as a pilot going forward in the industry full of layoffs and nowhere to go with this skill they have honed. It will pass and everyone will say they voted against it in public.

 

[john john]

•unless in imminent danger of losing its DIP financing and
satisfaction of other tests.
• The company must propose and may only support a Plan of Reorganization
(POR) that contains the ALPA Notes, the ALPA Claim (equity), and other terms,
including assumption of the PWA as modified.
• If the company's POR does not comply with the ALPA terms, procedures are
established to return to the PWA in its entirety as it existed prior to LOA #50.
• $650 million note or cash (at company option) in consideration of contract
concessions if the DB plan terminates. MEC to determine allocation.

This will come back and haunt ALPA. This is DAL out. The
Unrepresentative most likely will get the shaft

 

[Ifly2]

The real focus is on rebuilding DL so there will be no reason to give them a reason to come back for more.

DL is on the verge of a turnaround and all its employees need to work to make sure that turnaround takes hold. AA employees have been able to keep management away from more cuts BECAUSE employees are running a good airline and are working with their management to keep AA at the top of the industry despite taking some sizable lumps. Even though AA and its employees have had a pretty adversarial relationship in the past, together they are recognizing the important of working together to make what is a pretty difficult industry the best it can be for both parties.

Hey World Dude

IF you believe ANY of what you wrote about AA, it's unions, employees, mgmt, or working together...then everything you write is suspect....

fantasy land