More On Concessions

[tadjr]

I have never heard anyone in this managenment team say it was gonna be just more pay cuts..... Where did u see that ? I believe it was a little more detailed and has been since he arrived? JUST THE FACTS PLEASE!!!!!!

I'm sure he'd love to tell you, but he probably signed the confidentiality agreement. Or its been blacked out by the company ala CWA memo.

 

[mweiss]

Many folks here need to be able to support their families at a job they do most of their waking hours. "survival" is the key...THIS IS NOT A HOBBY...

Of course you need to be able to support your family. We all do. The thing it appears most union airline employees fail to understand is that, in this country, there is no "right" to a wage that permits you to support your family. Whether that's appropriate or not is a separate discussion, but the USA is primarily a capitalist nation, not a socialist nation.

I'm certainly not going to defend mismanagement of USAirways. The airline has been horribly mismanaged for years, and those birds have come home to roost. The situation you're in is untenable, and I sympathize with you.

Nonetheless, while you can pretend all you want that your job guarantees you a wage that allows you to support your family, in reality you are guaranteed nothing. If USAirways ceases operations, you get unemployment benefits for a while, and then nothing after that (except perhaps welfare for a while). Maybe giving concessions will prolong the inevitable, or maybe it will keep you from hitting the ground. It seems pretty likely that at the current attitude (using the aeronautical, not emotional, definition of the term) USAirways will not survive much longer, however.

In the end, we all make our career choices. I worked in software during the 90s, and enjoyed what I did. I was paid fairly well. I'm now entering my second year of unemployment. Sure, I need to support my family as much as the rest of you, but I understand that it is not an entitlement. If I want to live where such support is more of an entitlement, I need to move to Canada or France. But I choose to stay here, and choose to attempt to stay in the same industry, and I have to live with the consequences of those choices.

You choose to stay in the industry that has historically given you great pleasure. It now requires great courage as well, and for that I commend you. But to do so and then complain of the consequences of that choice is disingenuous. Your industry is undergoing wholesale changes, and the old rules will not survive this decade. You can wish all you want that they would...lord knows I wish I could still be in the land of huge stock option grants that go up by a factor of ten in the first month after IPO. But I'm realistic enough to recognize that those days are over, and I'm glad for what I was able to get from them. You need to do the same.

 

[PITbull]

mweiss,

Thank you for your "dim" veiw and tidbit on your reality. What unions fail to understand?

Let's do a compare/and contrast. You are talking to organized labor, you know... "collective bargaining", "collective" voice, "collective" action. Unlike you, who acts on an individual basis. We are not talking stock market, IPOs, stock options and your risks on wall street. Contrary to your belief that the wall street game is over, it has not changed, and it will come gain in the next generation of wall street gamblers that will make walls street soar again. You maybe alive or dead by then. But doesn't not mean and there is NO indication that history does not repeat itself.
Presently the Dow is at 10,700, highest in 4 years, and not since the 11,000 mark in Feb. of 2000.
With regard to what I am guaranteed, sir? That's all negotiable, and organized labor has the "advantage" to obtain good contracts in lucrative times, and choose to negotiate "gives" for down turns. Whether you believe it is capitlism or socialism, or whatever "ism" you want to attach to what I say to assist you in your conceptualization, the fact of the matter is that every single person who goes out and works expects to be paid a fair wage for their skills and responsibilites. We are entitled to receiving pay for the work we do, and what is negotiated is what we accept OR WE DON'T. The difference with organized labor, and the individual non-union worker, IS WE COLLECTIVELY NEGOTIATE, AND WE COLLECTIVELY REJECT, AND WE COLLECTIVELY CAN BE RELLEASED TO PROTEST AND DO JOB ACTIONS. Unlike, you, the average non-union worker THAT CAN'T PROTEST IN THE WORKPLACE TO IMPROVE YOUR CONDITION OR INCREASE YOUR WAGES AND BENEFITS. You either have to accept it or leave. If you pull an individual job action...like not show up for work for the day, you will be fired. Period.

If USAirways ceases, many of those that are here today, just like those who have gone before us, WILL FIND OTHER WORK. If what is offered by managment turns out to be less than desirable, and not supportive to human existence, then there is no real loss. Bad jobs are a dime a dozen. If your theory is remotely plausible, than obviously some news reporter should be doing a big story that more THAN 100,000 AIRLINE WORKERS THAT LOST THEIR JOBS SINCE 9/11, SHOULD NOW BE ON WELFARE, ACCORDING TO YOUR REALITY.

 

[mweiss]

Thank you for your "dim" veiw and tidbit on your reality. What unions fail to understand?

Unions fail to understand that you cannot get blood out of a turnip. Negotiate all you want, but if the money ain't there, you have a worthless contract and no job.

Contrary to your belief that that is over, it has not changed, and it will come gain in the next generation of wall street gamblers that will make walls street soar again.

Actually, what I meant is that the software boom is over. Most likely, the next boom will be in biotech, but I'm not interested in that business, and I don't have the expertise. I might invest in it, but I'm not going to have the pleasure of living it.

With regard to what I am guaranteed, sir? That's all negotiable, and organized labor has the "advantage" to obtain good contracts in lucrative times, and choose to negotiate "gives" for down turns.

You are guaranteed nothing. If your contract says you can't be laid off, and USAirways ceases operations, you're laid off. Sorry to break it to you.

...the fact of the matter is that every single person who goes out and works expects to be paid a fair wage for their skills and responsibilites.

Of course they do. Never said they don't. I'm just saying that the expectation that "fair wage" is equivalent to "the wage I want" is unrealistic. I'd love to meet someone who doesn't think they're underpaid.

If your theory is remotely plausible, than obviously some news reporter should be doing a big story that more THAN 100,000 AIRLINE WORKERS THAT LOST THEIR JOBS SINCE 9/11, and SHOULD NOW BE ON WELFARE, ACCORDING TO YOUR REALITY.

Huh? I'm not expecting reporters to do stories on "my" reality. I'm really baffled by this comment. All I'm suggesting is that you don't understand the second order results of collective bargaining.

 

[PITbull]

Read your post again or revise it. You stated and implied that the reality for folks who lose their jobs is unemployment and welfare for awhile.

You are not an airline worker, therefore, YOU are not part of the airline workers who have lost their jobs. You implied there is no life after an airline job. My point, which you probably refuse to conceptualize, is that these folks are not all on welfare. If they were, the media would be doing a big story on the airline workers who are now all sitting on welfare.

PS: Your condition... and as unfortunate as it is, is YOUR reality, and what you chose to accept.

 

[mweiss]

You stated and implied that the reality for folks who lose their jobs is unemployment and welfare for awhile...You implied there is no life after an airline job.

Oh, is that all you're ranting about? Sheesh. I'm not so blind as to think that people who are laid off from an airline spend the rest of their lives unemployed.

What I was trying to say is that people who work for the "legacy" carriers don't have a sustainable position. The ultimate choice is to either accept less money for the work, do more work for the same money, or change careers. The old wages are not a "right" conferred upon you. They last only as long as your employer does.

Your condition... and as unfortunate as it is, is YOUR reality, and what you chose to accept.

Of course it is. I chose it with my eyes wide open. And it's not as bad as I perhaps made it out to be. I'm pursuing a master's degree (in your hometown, it would appear), and I have high hopes (and pretty good likelihood) of a good job later this year when I complete the program. But I understand that the industry changed, and the wonderful salaries and benefits that I got four years ago don't exist anymore. I'm accepting less money for the work, rather than changing careers.

 

[PITbull]

What I was trying to say is that people who work for the "legacy" carriers don't have a sustainable position. The ultimate choice is to either accept less money for the work, do more work for the same money, or change careers.

And that is what we as labor will collectively decide.



PS: And all the best, once you finish your program. And don't cut yourself short, you are worth more than you think.

 

[youngblood]

I must be clueless, but isn't it my right to know what I may or may not be voting on? CWA did not say they weren't willing to negogiate. They simply said they wanted to inform their members. This company has kept it's employees in the dark on way too many subjects for us to walk into the wolves' den with eyes shut. I will not be blind-sided again.

I am not looking for insider information, nor will I disclose any. I simply want the knowledge to vote without discrimination. As a matter of fact, I demand it and so should every employee.

Although some may think we are not entitled to anything in this life, I certainly have the right to make that decision for myself. I AM entitled to decent wages and a decent living, regardless of what profession I choose.

 

[PITbull]

Young blood,

I promise that you will. But, we haven't gotten that far, and we are not sure if we are even going there yet. Mangement has not told us what expectation they have on any concessions.

 

[youngblood]

I know the unions will inform eventually. I am just tired of feeling drawn and quartered by management. The suspence I feel is literally killing me. In a way, I am reminded of the "grapevine" challenge. You know, when someone passes a secret to the next person and by the time it gets to the end of the line it's so misconstrued it doesn't even resemble what the first person said. I simply want the facts and am tired of playing the game.

 

[Dea Certe]

It's all about negotiation. Labor and management do have a common goal: Making the product successful so both sides benefit.

And I do believe we are entitled to know the details in order to make the best choice, whether it's to hold out, give up or move on.

Given the level of mistrust in the employee ranks toward management, I think it would be in management's best interest to disclose the facts or dismiss certain members from the executive suite. There's a lack of credibility that needs to be addressed and I fear after all the concessions from every group on the property, there is a feeling of being systematically duped.

As it stands now, I believe few are willing to go on blind faith with this team. Obviously, the majority of employees wanted to give Dave the benefit of the doubt; not once but twice. Statements have been made and then shortly thereafter, reversed. Reference the statements on the out-sourcing of the Airbus work for starters.

I realize this is an economy of "McJobs" (or Bush-league employment I like to call it) but there will be other work for most of us. The level of education is high in the airline business. I'll swear to you, I know of no other group as creative as flight attendants. One of the finest qualities in a flight attendant is the ability to make the best of any bad situation.

USAirways management is on thin ice, with creditors, with the frequent flyers and Wall Street. It seems to me the best choice would be to come clean. No one wants to see this airline survive more than those who have labored the most and the hardest; the employees.

Dea

 

[youngblood]

It's all about negotiation. Labor and management do have a common goal: Making the product successful so both sides benefit.

And I do believe we are entitled to know the details in order to make the best choice, whether it's to hold out, give up or move on.

Given the level of mistrust in the employee ranks toward management, I think it would be in management's best interest to disclose the facts or dismiss certain members from the executive suite. There's a lack of credibility that needs to be addressed and I fear after all the concessions from every group on the property, there is a feeling of being systematically duped.

As it stands now, I believe few are willing to go on blind faith with this team. Obviously, the majority of employees wanted to give Dave the benefit of the doubt; not once but twice. Statements have been made and then shortly thereafter, reversed. Reference the statements on the out-sourcing of the Airbus work for starters.

I realize this is an economy of "McJobs" (or Bush-league employment I like to call it) but there will be other work for most of us. The level of education is high in the airline business. I'll swear to you, I know of no other group as creative as flight attendants. One of the finest qualities in a flight attendant is the ability to make the best of any bad situation.

USAirways management is on thin ice, with creditors, with the frequent flyers and Wall Street. It seems to me the best choice would be to come clean. No one wants to see this airline survive more than those who have labored the most and the hardest; the employees.

Dea

I can express to management the same argument I give my children......

"You'll be in less trouble if you tell me the truth."

Why is it those between 7 and 3 yrs of age can grasp this concept, but adults can't?

 

[usfliboi]

I state this because I believe you are very confused.

My fellow union sister !!!! Im not confused. Very focused and understand the basics. You are mis guided if you feel the way you feel however I can believe this coming from someone who can be in denial about her fellow employees having a different opinion than that of her own. I submit to you every employee here needs and more importantly wants to be with this company . Very few flight attnendants that work desperatly need money. You only have to see the pay scales over the years to prove this. For the most part people who do our jobs love it ( at least in the past) Many holds part time jobs and knew full well what was involved coming into the industry. You only have to look at past failed airlines to document these theories. Many from eastern who made 40 bucks an hour started over at 13 when eastern went under. A move based on money or economics? Nope! A love for their industry. Illl end this discussion with you as i have others. We agree to disagree and in the end only time will tell what really happens. As i said to another we will give again in some form .Whether it is here today with this airline or sold to another and have no choice. That is a fact we can all learn to accept. We both have one thing in common To survive !!!

 

[PITbull]

My fellow union sister !!!! Im not confused. Very focused and understand the basics. You are mis guided if you feel the way you feel however I can believe this coming from someone who can be in denial about her fellow employees having a different opinion than that of her own. I submit to you every employee here needs and more importantly wants to be with this company . Very few flight attnendants that work desperatly need money. You only have to see the pay scales over the years to prove this. For the most part people who do our jobs love it ( at least in the past) Many holds part time jobs and knew full well what was involved coming into the industry. You only have to look at past failed airlines to document these theories. Many from eastern who made 40 bucks an hour started over at 13 when eastern went under. A move based on money or economics? Nope! A love for their industry. Illl end this discussion with you as i have others. We agree to disagree and in the end only time will tell what really happens. As i said to another we will give again in some form .Whether it is here today with this airline or sold to another and have no choice. That is a fact we can all learn to accept. We both have one thing in common To survive !!!

Usfliboi,

A. mwiess is not an airline collegue.

B. Wasn't addressing your confusion, YOU are delusional.

C. We have many f/as from Eastern that work for U now making $40 per hour at top out scale. There is life after Eastern and there is life after U, but blantantly obvious, not for you.

D. Your statement above is so far from the truth and I am in a position to know. YOU are not. The MEC is in session and f/as came to the meeting to express thier suffering IN DETAIL. Are you dismissing them?

Get your head out in the sunlight.

 

[ktflyhome]

usflyboi: You stated in the above post. "I submit to you every employee here needs and more importanlty wants to be with this company.

Then you say"Very few flight attendants that work here desparately need money.

Then you say"many have part-time jobs."

These statements seem contradictory. Why would many have part-time jobs If they didn't need the money.?????

You say every employee Needs and wants, then you say we don't need. What is up with you??? <_<

All I can say, is what I posted previously. I would like to be a "little fly on the wall" the day you and others are sitting morning OPR. Or do you even know what that is????? :blink: