More MEM Cuts

[WorldTraveler]

congratulations.

In your exuberance to slam me, you also slammed Kev who has done all of that and more

tell us again, Q, why you decided to leave the airline industry and how much promise did you see in it?

 

[Kev3188]

IOW Kev. Do not set your sights too high all at once. Once you learn to crawl, then you can work on speech. Maybe a GED, then some community college work. Keep your spirits up Kev, for you may aspire to be as good as those who know what is best for you.

We know you can do it. We are all rooting for you!

Geez.

Ha!

I'm really lookin' forward to gettin' all learned up.

Awesome...

congratulations.

In your exuberance to slam me, you also slammed Kev...

No he didn't.

What he did do is accurately note (and satirize) the overarching theme of condescension in your writings.

This thread is not about me. It is NOT okay that you continue to make it so. You can make a point in more general terms and still cover the same ground.

Anyway...

Back to the original topic:

It appears that DL employees have lost (or will lose) more handling work in MEM. They had taken over much of this years ago, when it was proven that Airlink employees at the time couldn't handle it.

So either the odds of furloughs have increased even more, or DL will keep everyone in the name of labor peace, and absorb the loss of productivity per worker while adding another cost center to the station. Lose lose all around.

 

[700UW]

+1 to Kev and Glenn!

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I remember when a RR employee was simply for vacation relief or rdo coverage. It gave the company the advantage of being able to assign the employee to a given shift/rdo on short notice as often as was needed. It was a way for most of us who got our lead seniority to get our start. It also gave us the opportunity to get some decent shifts/rdo's on occasion, rather than being relegated to mid shift with wed/thu rdo...

It was never intended to be a regular ft employee. There were very few. I can only imagine how much the productivity has dropped in conjunction with the addition of the RR employees.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Ha!

I'm really lookin' forward to gettin' all learned up.

Awesome...

No he didn't.

What he did do is accurately note (and satirize) the overarching theme of condescension in your writings.

This thread is not about me. It is NOT okay that you continue to make it so. You can make a point in more general terms and still cover the same ground.

Anyway...

Back to the original topic:

It appears that DL employees have lost (or will lose) more handling work in MEM. They had taken over much of this years ago, when it was proven that Airlink employees at the time couldn't handle it.

So either the odds of furloughs have increased even more, or DL will keep everyone in the name of labor peace, and absorb the loss of productivity per worker while adding another cost center to the station. Lose lose all around.

No,
Kev, it is about you and it is about your expectations about what DL is and should offer you and your ability to adapt to the changes in the industry that have taken place and will continue to take place. As long as you continue to post about DL doesn't meet your expectations - not what DL says but what you make them out to be, then yes the thread is about you.

You have spent 4 years trying to fit DL into a mold which is what you envisioned them to be and which they never said to you or to anyone else that they wanted to be or agreed to be.

The RR program might well have intended to be vacation relief but FAs were also once hired to be young and pretty and had to leave when they got married.
life moves on.

and, Q, you still haven't told us why you left the airline industry..... it is apparently ok for you to have told us that you believed it wasn't worth staying but it isn't ok for anyone else to say that to someone who actually is in the industry.

Your condescending comments are a slap in the face of ACS people who, as Kev notes, are often well-educated and intelligent. But that doesn't mean they are fighting the realization that the job is not a career. IF they did, they would be willing to fight to obtain the career benefits that Kev wants. They don't.

My statement remains that anyone who approaches the airline industry as a career is setting themselves up for disappoint at best and most likely economic loss.

But I've grown accustomed to the fact that many of the participants on this forum are disconnected from reality and will do anything they can to shoot down the messenger instead of facing the truth of the message.

 

[Kev3188]

No,
Kev, it is about you...

Actually, the title of the thread is "More MEM cuts."

and, Q, you still haven't told us why you left the airline industry.....

Sure he has. Many times, as a matter of fact...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Actually, the title of the thread is "More MEM cuts."

funny, I dont' think it was THAT long ago that I read a post from you saying that this forum discusses labor issues because that is what matters to people.

If the topic was more MEM cuts, then we wouldn't have had to read about your expectations that DL should be lifting the middle class.
If the topic was about MEM cuts and you had kept to the subject, we would not have read about seniority lists and the fact that Tech Ops posts them but ACS doesn't.

So what do you want to talk about, Kevin?

If you want to talk about labor, then I'll talk about labor - and I'll trot out all of the information that paints the picture that I see and you can do the same. What you cannot do is pretend the facts that I present are not the truth. You may not like the story they tell and they may not encompass all of the details that you see but they do represent the big picture.

We have discussed a number of times that DL along w/ most other airlines no longer want you to make what you do a career. They hire you to do a job and they pay you quite well for what you do, esp. relative to what they can pay someone else to do the job for far less.

All the unions in the world won't do a thing if your coworkers don't believe a union can help or if they don't intend to make a career out of their job.

They have consistently said they accept DL's "employment contract" as is.

In the meantime, the writing should be very clear that DL will continue to reduce as many jobs from FT to PT or RR, esp. at the airport and esp. on the ramp.

If you want to keep throwing labor issues into every conversation then you should not be surprised if I keep coming back with the facts and brutal reality.

Sure he has. Many times, as a matter of fact...

Yes, I know he has... and that's why the cries that he or 700 want to make about me not having a dog in the fight are all the more invalid because they both left the industry - as did I. I don't paint any picture of DL being a great place to stick around and settle in for the next 15-20 years. I do paint the picture of DL as a company that has adapted to the realities of the changing marketplace and has in the process protected the jobs of its existing full-time employees better than any other network carrier and has provided more options to voluntarily leave.

When WN accumulates a $10B pension obligation because they chose to freeze rather than terminate their legacy pensions, then we can talk about them w/ the same comparison as DL who shells out $600M plus per year in costs to fund its frozen pensions IN ADDITION to the DC contributions it makes for current employees.

IN the meantime, DL is building a very strong company - for an airline - and the employees who stick around will enjoy the benefits.

Congrats on your 16 years, IIRC, and BTW. Not sure if you have week 4 of vacation now - forget when that happens - but if you do, the fact that this is it WRT increased vacation along w/ no more step increases should say that you are where you are for the rest of your career. If you are happy w/ that level and are willing to stick it out and take the risk that it might not work out for the next X years, then enjoy what you do.
But don't continue to expect DL to help you achieve your vision of a growing middle class. They run a business, not create social experiments.

And those like 700 and Q who no longer have any skin in the game should not be sitting on the sideline encourageing you to pursue false expectations about achieving what you want, esp. since they do so using the failed notion that unions can help - when they have clearly become completely ineffective.

And, if by chance, you still want to talk about MEM, it should be fairly easy to recognize that MEM stood no chance against ATL, esp. since the only strategic contribution that MEM made was to decrease the travel time between certain mid-south and central south destinations to themselves and to the west - which was much of the same justification that DFW had as a hub for DL. But just like DFW, when the costs of operating MEM as a hub became higher than the revenue that could be generated from those fairly unique traffic flows, then DL pulled down the hub and will have to figure out another way to serve those markets - or walk away from them if they cannot competitively serve them on their existing network. The strategic case is even less convincing for CVG which is why the pulldown started there first.

You let me know what you want to discuss... I can keep up either way.

Oh, and hope that doesn't sound too condescending. The brutal truth sometimes comes across that way.

 

[Kev3188]

You claim you can keep up, but let's recap anyway:

I said:

This thread is not about me.

You replied with:

No,
Kev, it is about you

To which I replied:

Actually, the title of the thread is "More MEM cuts."

Should be simple enough to follow that trajectory. This board's penchant for discussing labor does not mean it's okay for you to continue to make a topic about me. Like I said earlier, you can make a general point and still cover the same ground effectivley. Your continued insistence in making it about me is unsettling at best. Knock it off.

If the topic was more MEM cuts, then we wouldn't have had to read about your expectations that DL should be lifting the middle class.

I never said I had an expectation of any company doing so. In fact, the whole thrust of my posts is that since that won't happen, then it's up to labor to make it happen.

Try and keep up.

If you want to talk about labor, then I'll talk about labor - and I'll trot out all of the information that paints the picture that I see and you can do the same. What you cannot do is pretend the facts that I present are not the truth.

I don't have to pretend. Your worldview does not comport with most workers' reality. You can use words like "facts,"and "truth" all you want; merely typing them won't change that.

The current "reality" in the American workplace may favor the corporatocracy you're so enamored with. That doesn't mean it can't be changed. The difference between you & I is that you're content to let the status quo continue, and have rationalized your compliance with long winded dissertations of why people should give up/give in.

I'm betting the other way.

You may not like the story they tell and they may not encompass all of the details that you see but they do represent the big picture.

No it tells the story *you* want to tell in order to promote *your* version of the narrative.

Yes, I know he has...

Then why waste the bandwidth asking?

Congrats on your 16 years, IIRC, and BTW. Not sure if you have week 4 of vacation now - forget when that happens -

Year 11.

 

[Kev3188]

But don't continue to expect DL to help you achieve your vision of a growing middle class. They run a business, not create social experiments.

See above. I thought you were keeping up?

And those like 700 and Q who no longer have any skin in the game should not be sitting on the sideline encourageing you to pursue false expectations about achieving what you want, esp. since they do so using the failed notion that unions can help - when they have clearly become completely ineffective.

No they haven't.

Oh, and hope that doesn't sound too condescending. The brutal truth sometimes comes across that way.

Sarcasm duly noted...

 

[WorldTraveler]

If you expect the labor movement to achieve what you want, then focus your attenion on fixing the labor movement.

When you've got that problem solved, then you can start working on the rest of the airline industry first since every one of DL's legacy carrier peers have cut total compensation per employee more over the past 10 years than DL has (including AA's cuts that are in the process of being implemented) and yet they are more heavily unionized.

BTW, Kev, you continue to be the target of the discussion because you are by far more active than your colleagues on the internet when it comes to arguing against what the company is doing. Bar none.

What's that sayin' about heat and the kitchen?

 

[737823]

Of course they don't. Why do you think I said they'd pay any price to maintain control?
They got a way with *plenty*. Was it "appropriate" in the eyes of the (labor) law? Apparently. Was it ethical? NFW.

Of course a company wants to message their employees and maintain control. DL has a right to provide information and facts. Similarly, the union can and should be able to make their case for representation and demonstrate to the workers how they add value to the employee/employer relationship. Ultimately the company should respect the decision of the workers, and in this case the IAM and AFA lost. As you and 700 have pointed out many, many times DL is not entirely non-union and both the pilots and flight dispatchers have a long history of being union. DL has respected this and if anything it would appear they have superior labor relations compared to their network peers. However, I've heard unions were aggressive, harassing, intimidating, followed workers around the parking lots to their car, showed up unannounced at their home. It's a two way street, the unions need to respect peoples decisions and privacy too.

I dunno, I'd like to think the rank and file is very much aware of the fiduciary duty companies have when it comes to disseminating information. But I also think they're aware that Wall St. generally applauds labor peace-whether thats obtained ethically or whether dissent is smothered- and therefore lets a lot of that sort of thing slide.

Of course we care about having labor peace. That's why its incredibly damaging and harmful when unions go to great lengths to publicize strike votes and pickets. Much of the traveling public is unversed on the workings of the RLA and if they read a news article saying saying a particular work group had a strike vote or picket, they are likely to believe a strike is ongoing or imminent when in reality a strike vote is generally only symbolic and usually doesn't result in a strike. However, the public sees this and decides to fly another carrier, not travel or make other arrangements. The revenue implications can be substantial, look at how harmful the pilot job action was at AA.

As for unions, they are accountable. I know you laugh when 700 says this, but it's true- especially when it comes to reporting of finances. I would venture to say that an LM2 is subject to as much scrutiny by the DOL as a 10K filing is by the SEC. I used to help compile the reports for my local lodge. Everything- and I mean everything- has to be accounted for & reported. We also covered all financial details at every meeting, and even the smallest of expenditures had to be voted on/approved. The last local I was in before losing representation took it almost to the point of paranoia. FWIW, I think that's just fine. The books should be open to any stakeholder that's interested.

It's different standards of reporting. LM-2s can be audited but the auditing and reporting standards are incredibly different and less comprehensive than that of a publicly traded company. I'm in no way saying 10-K, 10-Qs and other publicly available reports give a complete and accurate picture of the financial condition of a company but there are all kinds of ways a union can manipulate reports to represent something different. Many unions have considerable investments in bonds for union projects. There are all kinds of ways to amortize the discount or premium to understate the true value of these investments to paint a different picture. As another example, public companies have greater scrutiny in the area of executive compensation, the information is more detailed and comprehensive. Yes unions do have to make certain things available but as you said, the reports are as comprehensive as you want to make them. I applaud you and your local for being thorough and maintaining accountability of the membership funds but not all unions do the same.

Well yeah; why do you think I constantly agitate for bottom up organizing/engagement, and a total revamp of how things work? Lol.

On these sorts of things, we may have different ideas of how to get there, but Bob & I are of the same mind (at least I think so, based on what he writes on here).

I too wonder what the impact of a general strike in this country would be at this time. Not that I would support such action or believe one is imminent I wonder what the intermediate to long range reception of the American public would be. Sure people would be inconvenienced in the near term but I wonder if people would have a different outlook on organized labor aside from the perception that union members have extravagant benefits and are 'put up on a pedestal' above the rest of American workers.

Labor unions are under more scrutiny than companies ever are.

The LMDRA a union has to report every single penny spent and it available for public records, a company doesnt.

Perfect example back in the late 1990s US had a confidential settlement with Boeing over a canceled aircraft order, yet you couldnt find the information on the 10k anywhere.

A union has to account and make public every penny spent.

See my above response to Kev

josh its not about obtaining hardship on the junior employee at one station.... if your station is closing and there places where you can hold then go to it but your seniority is not the one that is going to cause hardship its the company for closing that station my 1st station closed in 05 bec the company failed us i went to anthr station where im at now and my seniority has not caused hardship among the other junior people in front of me

I'm not sure what your point is, but is it really fair for someone working at an impacted station (say LAS for US) to then move to DCA-a more strategic and less susceptible station to cuts? I wouldn't say it is fair, Bob has long posted that when people pursue airline careers they willingly take on risk. That's what some said for the TWA workers that it was poor decision making on their part to work for such a poorly run and highly susceptible carrier, couldn't the same be said in this case? Someone that is senior is likely in a better position to weather a layoff and period of unemployment than someone more junior who is younger, has young children, living in a high cost city like DCA.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

If you expect the labor movement to achieve what you want, then focus your attenion on fixing the labor movement.

Where have you been? In this thread alone, I've said this:

Well yeah; why do you think I constantly agitate for bottom up organizing/engagement, and a total revamp of how things work? Lol.

...And this...

On these sorts of things, we may have different ideas of how to get there, but Bob & I are of the same mind (at least I think so, based on what he writes on here).

And, of course this:

I never said I had an expectation of any company doing so. In fact, the whole thrust of my posts is that since that won't happen, then it's up to labor to make it happen.

Then there was this:

The current "reality" in the American workplace may favor the corporatocracy you're so enamored with. That doesn't mean it can't be changed. The difference between you & I is that you're content to let the status quo continue, and have rationalized your compliance with long winded dissertations of why people should give up/give in.

I'm betting the other way.

So much for keeping up?

 

[Kev3188]

However, I've heard unions were aggressive, harassing, intimidating, followed workers around the parking lots to their car, showed up unannounced at their home. It's a two way street, the unions need to respect peoples decisions and privacy too.

Those sorts of claims are trotted out in just about any campaign anywhere. FWIW, in this case, the IAM went on record as saying they would cooperate fully with the company to investigate any and all allegations. Of course, the company refused. Nothing ever came of any of them.

Of course we care about having labor peace. That's why its incredibly damaging and harmful when unions go to great lengths to publicize strike votes and pickets. Much of the traveling public is unversed on the workings of the RLA and if they read a news article saying saying a particular work group had a strike vote or picket, they are likely to believe a strike is ongoing or imminent when in reality a strike vote is generally only symbolic and usually doesn't result in a strike.

I get what you're saying, but I'd say the strike vote is more than symbolic; perhaps brinksmanship is a more fitting term? It also serves as a sort of internal pressure test to ensure that people truly are ready for whatever may come.

That said, most everyone would prefer any sort of talks never get to that point...

It's different standards of reporting.
LM-2s can be audited but the auditing and reporting standards are incredibly different and less comprehensive than that of a publicly traded company. I'm in no way saying 10-K, 10-Qs and other publicly available reports give a complete and accurate picture of the financial condition of a company but there are all kinds of ways a union can manipulate reports to represent something different. Many unions have considerable investments in bonds for union projects. There are all kinds of ways to amortize the discount or premium to understate the true value of these investments to paint a different picture. As another example, public companies have greater scrutiny in the area of executive compensation, the information is more detailed and comprehensive. Yes unions do have to make certain things available but as you said, the reports are as comprehensive as you want to make them. I applaud you and your local for being thorough and maintaining accountability of the membership funds but not all unions do the same.

I wouldn't argue any of that; only that both filings have a fair level of scrutiny & accountability.

I too wonder what the impact of a general strike in this country would be at this time. Not that I would support such action or believe one is imminent I wonder what the intermediate to long range reception of the American public would be. Sure people would be inconvenienced in the near term but I wonder if people would have a different outlook on organized labor aside from the perception that union members have extravagant benefits and are 'put up on a pedestal' above the rest of American workers.

Should that ever occur, I think it would remind people how important labor (and by that, I mean all labor) is to this country.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
if you recognize that the labor movement must step forward to solve the problems of securing the future of the middle class etc and that no company is/can do it, then why are you surprised about stuff like whether you can see the reduction in the number of FT jobs on the ramp at DL?
If the problem really is one that only the labor movement can solve, then tell us what you are doing to advance that movement and not what you find frustrating about the airline industry or Delta specifically.

If your expectation is that a general strike is necessary to validate the worth of labor, then it would seem Yyou have a very high hill to climb since your coworkers have consistently voted that they do not even want to increase the number of unions representing the large workgroups on DL property.

Despite your believe in the value of the labor movement to secure the future of the American worker and stop the tide of pay regression and career job losses in the airline industry, there is ample evidence to show that the labor movement has been almost entirely unsuccessful since deregulation in accomplishing that goal.
Further, your largely non-union employer has done a better job of securing the jobs of its existing full-time workers, minimizing pay cuts, and providing a brighter future than have any other of its network carrier peers.

With the reality that DL is now capable of buying ownership stakes in major global airlines in addition to continuing to increase the pay of its employees and bring jobs back to DL employees that have been outsourced, the idea that labor unions can do a better job than what DL has done is beyond the ability of most DL employees to believe.

BTW,
you didn't really delete the comment saying that you were pulling for me, did you? I thought that was a great sentiment to have in common - because I genuinely do mean it.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
if you recognize that the labor movement must step forward to solve the problems of securing the future of the middle class etc and that no company is/can do it, then why are you surprised about stuff like whether you can see the reduction in the number of FT jobs on the ramp at DL?

I thought you were keeping up. When have I ever said I was surprised?

Either you have a comprehension issue, or you just like talking in circles, and I don't think it's the former.

If your expectation is that a general strike is necessary to validate the worth of labor...

Hmmm. Maybe it is a comprehension issue. I never said that, either; only that if one were to occur, it might wake the nation up.

Despite your believe in the value of the labor movement to secure the future of the American worker and stop the tide of pay regression and career job losses in the airline industry, there is ample evidence to show that the labor movement has been almost entirely unsuccessful since deregulation in accomplishing that goal.

Again, already covered (twice, actually). Just because the current environment is one way, doesn't mean it can't change.

Further, your largely non-union employer has done a better job of securing the jobs of its existing full-time workers, minimizing pay cuts, and providing a brighter future than have any other of its network carrier peers.

No they haven't. total compensation is always a zero sum game at this outfit.

...and bring jobs back to DL employees that have been outsourced

...And you be sure to let us all know when that occurs...

BTW,
you didn't really delete the comment saying that you were pulling for me, did you?

I did; seemed unecessary, and since you seem to be unable to grasp the concept of sarcasm lately, I thought you might not get it...