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On 11/29/2002 6:57:23 PM Bob Owens wrote:
Q1) I'll do better than that. I'll get you a full copy of our contract if you give me a full copy of your contract. Deal? By the way the AA mechs contract was ratified in October of 2001, full retro back to March 1, 2001, paid in full.
A1) What is it you want to know? It is not like the contracts are big secrets. Do you need pay details? PILOTS MAKE MORE MONEY THAN MECHANICS AT UAL. There, does that help? PILOTS ARE GIVING UP ALMOST THREE TIMES AS MUCH IN CONCESSIONS AS MECHANICS. Does that help too? BTW, WTF does what a pilot make have to do with the current malaise? Either the IAM is going to vote up or down. However, if they think they are going to correct the evil that allows pilots to make more money than mechanics, then I guess we are ALL in for a long night!
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Q2) No I would not expect them to give back anything. They've earned it. I dont think anyone should give paycuts, execpt the executives, after all its their fault the company is in the position its in. But if pilots are going to tell mechanics that they should accept paycuts I will not hesitate to point out that in the end the pilots will end up with a better deal than the mechanics. At the end of the six year contract most pilots will likely have progressed up to better pay. Retirements will allow them to move up. This will offset their 'paycuts. Mechanics on the other hand are at top pay in 5 years and their losses will be real, their real income will actually go down. So the few pilots that actually see a real paycut after the 6 year contract will be a handfull of the top paid pilots that are still around. At $300,000 a year I doubt that any of those guys will be forced to work a second job to make ends meet.
A2) Now, i grant you, some of the executives of this company DID screw us all. However, the three that were doing most of the screwing are NO LONGER HERE! Newsflash! So, we are going to kill the company because 3 guys who have already got theres screwed us? I have heard of twisted logic, but that is just twisted!
I am very interested in how, in the end, the pilots will make out in this deal. Not just because I can't understand how, but because I want to be able to explain it to all my friends who are also losing their jobs or getting surplussed out of their fleet/seat. I can hardly wait to hear the good news. Oh, it must be the 18% raises we get by 2007, while the IAM only gets 7%...is that it? Is that more of that twisted logic I was talking about? Believe me when I say NO-ONE is making out on this deal. Person for person, the pilots, who I grant you make more pay, are making a CONSIDERABLY BIGGER CONTRIBUTION IN BOTH PERCENTAGE AND DOLLAR TERMS than ANY other group. ANY!
Also, while we are at it, I would be interested to know how many of the 8,800 pilots left at UAL are making anything CLOSE to $300K? Get real! That is like saying all the guys in management screwed us and they all deserve to get the boot or should have their $500K salaries cut in half. The median seat in this airline is 400 F/O or 300 Captain, pick your poison. I can assure you, none of them make anywhere CLOSE to the numbers you seem to think we all make!
Also, while we are on this issue, I would just like to point out that the pilots have been hearing about all this retro money we got. I am a mid-seniority pilot, but was a Captain at the time, and my retro was about $4,000, NOT the $40,000 I keep seeing floated as another reason to vote NO! The propaganda machine worked quite well, but as with most propaganda, it fell FAR short of the truth. But, while we are on the subject of comparisons, how much did the IAM contribute to the ESOP? Did you guys go with the 23.7% that the pilots did? Oh, that's right, no you didn't. But when the pilots got that money back (as we were all promised by the CEO!), everyone was very quick to quote the size of the raise! Such short, or is it just FEEBLE, memories people have!
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Q3) Some pilots want to tell others to accept pay cuts and say what they are giving up but how can anyone really check to see?
A3) Well, short of mailing you the only copy of the contract and ERP that I have, I am not sure! I am sure your local union lodge has a copy, as I assume you guys all know it in detail from the quotes I hear!
However, I am a 737 Captain, and will be going (it looks like, based ont he 49 aircraft we are grounding and the ones we have already parked) to the 767 F/O seat from whence I came three years ago. I will take a $71.05 per hour pay cut. We have a 75 hour guarantee, so that works out to $64K. I will also take a $7,034 per year cut in my retirement that I will NEVER EVER GET BACK. So, that is a $71K+ cut. And I can assure you, it WILL make a HUGE difference in my life for the full term of the contract! It is ALMOST HALF of my current pay or about two-thirds of my new pay! With the aircraft orders gone, the RJs proliferating, and the Star Alliance taking over many of the intl routes, I can guarantee you there will be an absolute minimum of seat movement over the term of this contract. In fact, it is already written into our scope agreement that the fleet WILL shrink!
I am not even sure why I am bothering with all these numbers, because you will just come back (like MM did) and say something like well, a $71K cut for me would be over 100%! I am not going to justify to you why I do, or should, make more money than a mechanic. It is what it is.
Pilots, as the WSJ has clearly stated, have lost ground in the pay department for well over a decade. C2K was meant to redress a SMALL PART of that, by returning our pay rates to Decision 83, a productivity scale that the company was trying to avoid due to the amount of widebody flying we do (which is highly productive!). The pilots actually accepted LESS money for the widebody guys than the company offered, because there were QWL issues we wanted and the most junior pilots were still on a sliding B scale of sorts.
In the end, pilots have their issues, and mechanics have theirs. Somtimes they are the same (pay) and sometimes they are different (6&2/4&2). Never the twain shall meet. So, why not let's get off the union bashing box, and realize that there will be NO REAL UNION to complain to when the judge is done, because there will be nothing to complain about.
I honestly think that UAL will tell the judge that the IAM has a seat on the BOD, that they have known the numbers all along, and their participation in the union coalition, and the resultant T/A, was an indication that they understood both the need and the urgency. UAL has simply run out of money. Then, the judge will retire to his chambers, read the company proposal to save what little is left that is not already mortgaged or leveraged to the hilt, and he will ALLOW the company (and creditor committee) to proceed with their plans.
THIS DEAL WAS THE GOOD FAITH NEGOTIATIONS! If you guys do not fix the problems you have with it (and in very short order!), the judge will simply abrogate your contract IF THAT IS WHAT THE CREDITOR COMMITTEE ASKS HIM TO DO! This is NOT rocket science. If you are having trouble following the line of reasoning, call ANY Corporate BK attorney and ask them what is going to happen. Or better yet, call your buddies at USAir, I am sure they ALL know by now!
mancityfan
28 PM Busdrvr wrote: 
