Mechanics turn down the concessions.

[UnitedChicago]

Unitedchicago;
The reason I sometimes slip and say we is that my dad worked for United. I grew up on United. United paid for my food, shelter, and for college.

I think that the current employees would like to do the same for their children as your parents did for you.

I agree...I'm sure the current employees do want to provide for their children. And as a Premier Exec, buying last minute fares and paying for premium services such as e-upgrades I feel I am returning the favor to United and their employees.

Business travelers typically only account for 20% of the customers, but contribute 80% of the revenue. I fall in the 20% category and feel honored to give UA business and help the employees' children just like UA did to me.

 

[Bob Owens]

UnitedChicago;
I agree...I'm sure the current employees do want to provide for their children. And as a Premier Exec, buying last minute fares and paying for premium services such as e-upgrades I feel I am returning the favor to United and their employees.

Business travelers typically only account for 20% of the customers, but contribute 80% of the revenue. I fall in the 20% category and feel honored to give UA business and help the employees' children just like UA did to me.

Great. Glad to hear it. Just how does this tie into mechanics agreeing to 6 years of concessions? Tell me how many times did your father agree to concessions?

 

[Bob Owens]

UnitedChicago;

I am not a United wannabe. I have interviewed there on three seperate occasions for marketing positions and ultimately decided against offers of employment.

Why not? Maybe they didnt even want to pay YOU enough?
So you dont want to work there but you feel that you are entitled to tell those that do that they should work for less.

I studied aviation management, marketing, and labor relations in college. I am extremely well read in this area. So I feel I am extremely qualified to post my opinion.

Great! So you learned all the theories. What practical experience, other than sitting in your B-Class seat do you have that makes you extremely qualified?

 

[Bob Owens]

United Chicago;
How do you know how much I pay for airfare? I continue to book last minute travel and generally only get cheap fares when I plan a vacation in advance.

I dont, and I dont recall saying that I did.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 11/29/2002 6:57:23 PM Bob Owens wrote:

But if pilots are going to tell mechanics that they should accept paycuts I will not hesitate to point out that in the end the pilots will end up with a better deal than the mechanics. At the end of the six year contract most pilots will likely have progressed up to better pay. Retirements will allow them to move up. This will offset their 'paycuts". Mechanics on the other hand are at top pay in 5 years and their losses will be real, their real income will actually go down.


You are, once again, incorrect. ALPAs deal allows the parking of approx 40 good paying widebodies. That means the oportunity to upgrade will be non-existant. MOST pilots took a hit on equipment. I've been downgraded to the level right below what I was flying. My partner in training was downgraded 4 payscales (747-400 to 737). I will hopefully make it back to the level I was at prior to 911 by the 6 year mark, others, like my training partner, will not. So I'll take a HUGE hit in the shgort term, and barely make it back to where I was, NOT counting inflation, so YES my real income WILL go down. As for 5 years to paydirt for the mechs, I'd gladly agree to a 12 year payscale for the mechs

"I am not privy to the details, so I cannot comment from a position of fact."

NO KIDDING


----------------
[/blockquote]

 

[UnitedChicago]

Bob:

May I call you just by Bob? You can call me Dave...my first name.

Is it possible for you to consolidate all your responses to my posts in one? [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']

Great. Glad to hear it. Just how does this tie into mechanics agreeing to 6 years of concessions? Tell me how many times did your father agree to concessions?

Obviously it doesn't tie into the concessions. I was merely responding to topics you raised. My original post addressed to you today was regarding Carty's love of claiming UA pilots will still make 2% (wow 2%!) more than AA pilots after the concessions. Then you started on the whole do you work for United string...in which lead us to where we are.

Why not? Maybe they didnt even want to pay YOU enough?
So you dont want to work there but you feel that you are entitled to tell those that do that they should work for less.

Well Bob, I'm just looking at the realities of United and the industry in this economy. If someone would come up with an alternate business plan that didn't require givebacks but qualified UA for loans...I'd read it and may even support it if it made sense.


Actually...I have been very respectful of the mechanics. I understand - albeit obviously not first-hand - how frustrating and painful it must be after swallowing the ESOP cuts. Goodwin was a bozo and they have a right to be pissed at management. While I generally lean more towards the management perspective...I try to take everything into account and not just side with one point of view because of my background or leaning.


I think Scotty Ford put it best when he said that they every right to be pissed at management and not trust them, but this is the best option for a crappy situation. At least they got raises. I know the retro is deferred...but they did win a fairly rich contract.

It seems to me that agreeing to this contract is their best option. Pay cuts will most certainly be deeper and more will lose their job in BK. Also, the judge might even wipe out the retro pay owed to them.

Just my opinion. And I express in a respectful manner. You don't see me posting on this board calling the mechanics idiots or stupid. I have much respect for them. Look at what I posted on Thanksgiving...I urged respect.

Anyway...going to pop in a movie. Rented Monsoon Wedding.

Have a good night.

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 6:57:23 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Q1) I'll do better than that. I'll get you a full copy of our contract if you give me a full copy of your contract. Deal? By the way the AA mechs contract was ratified in October of 2001, full retro back to March 1, 2001, paid in full.

A1) What is it you want to know? It is not like the contracts are big secrets. Do you need pay details? PILOTS MAKE MORE MONEY THAN MECHANICS AT UAL. There, does that help? PILOTS ARE GIVING UP ALMOST THREE TIMES AS MUCH IN CONCESSIONS AS MECHANICS. Does that help too? BTW, WTF does what a pilot make have to do with the current malaise? Either the IAM is going to vote up or down. However, if they think they are going to correct the evil that allows pilots to make more money than mechanics, then I guess we are ALL in for a long night!
==================================================================

Q2) No I would not expect them to give back anything. They've earned it. I dont think anyone should give paycuts, execpt the executives, after all its their fault the company is in the position its in. But if pilots are going to tell mechanics that they should accept paycuts I will not hesitate to point out that in the end the pilots will end up with a better deal than the mechanics. At the end of the six year contract most pilots will likely have progressed up to better pay. Retirements will allow them to move up. This will offset their 'paycuts. Mechanics on the other hand are at top pay in 5 years and their losses will be real, their real income will actually go down. So the few pilots that actually see a real paycut after the 6 year contract will be a handfull of the top paid pilots that are still around. At $300,000 a year I doubt that any of those guys will be forced to work a second job to make ends meet.

A2) Now, i grant you, some of the executives of this company DID screw us all. However, the three that were doing most of the screwing are NO LONGER HERE! Newsflash! So, we are going to kill the company because 3 guys who have already got theres screwed us? I have heard of twisted logic, but that is just twisted!

I am very interested in how, in the end, the pilots will make out in this deal. Not just because I can't understand how, but because I want to be able to explain it to all my friends who are also losing their jobs or getting surplussed out of their fleet/seat. I can hardly wait to hear the good news. Oh, it must be the 18% raises we get by 2007, while the IAM only gets 7%...is that it? Is that more of that twisted logic I was talking about? Believe me when I say NO-ONE is making out on this deal. Person for person, the pilots, who I grant you make more pay, are making a CONSIDERABLY BIGGER CONTRIBUTION IN BOTH PERCENTAGE AND DOLLAR TERMS than ANY other group. ANY!

Also, while we are at it, I would be interested to know how many of the 8,800 pilots left at UAL are making anything CLOSE to $300K? Get real! That is like saying all the guys in management screwed us and they all deserve to get the boot or should have their $500K salaries cut in half. The median seat in this airline is 400 F/O or 300 Captain, pick your poison. I can assure you, none of them make anywhere CLOSE to the numbers you seem to think we all make!

Also, while we are on this issue, I would just like to point out that the pilots have been hearing about all this retro money we got. I am a mid-seniority pilot, but was a Captain at the time, and my retro was about $4,000, NOT the $40,000 I keep seeing floated as another reason to vote NO! The propaganda machine worked quite well, but as with most propaganda, it fell FAR short of the truth. But, while we are on the subject of comparisons, how much did the IAM contribute to the ESOP? Did you guys go with the 23.7% that the pilots did? Oh, that's right, no you didn't. But when the pilots got that money back (as we were all promised by the CEO!), everyone was very quick to quote the size of the raise! Such short, or is it just FEEBLE, memories people have!
==================================================================

Q3) Some pilots want to tell others to accept pay cuts and say what they are giving up but how can anyone really check to see?

A3) Well, short of mailing you the only copy of the contract and ERP that I have, I am not sure! I am sure your local union lodge has a copy, as I assume you guys all know it in detail from the quotes I hear!

However, I am a 737 Captain, and will be going (it looks like, based ont he 49 aircraft we are grounding and the ones we have already parked) to the 767 F/O seat from whence I came three years ago. I will take a $71.05 per hour pay cut. We have a 75 hour guarantee, so that works out to $64K. I will also take a $7,034 per year cut in my retirement that I will NEVER EVER GET BACK. So, that is a $71K+ cut. And I can assure you, it WILL make a HUGE difference in my life for the full term of the contract! It is ALMOST HALF of my current pay or about two-thirds of my new pay! With the aircraft orders gone, the RJs proliferating, and the Star Alliance taking over many of the intl routes, I can guarantee you there will be an absolute minimum of seat movement over the term of this contract. In fact, it is already written into our scope agreement that the fleet WILL shrink!

I am not even sure why I am bothering with all these numbers, because you will just come back (like MM did) and say something like well, a $71K cut for me would be over 100%! I am not going to justify to you why I do, or should, make more money than a mechanic. It is what it is.

Pilots, as the WSJ has clearly stated, have lost ground in the pay department for well over a decade. C2K was meant to redress a SMALL PART of that, by returning our pay rates to Decision 83, a productivity scale that the company was trying to avoid due to the amount of widebody flying we do (which is highly productive!). The pilots actually accepted LESS money for the widebody guys than the company offered, because there were QWL issues we wanted and the most junior pilots were still on a sliding B scale of sorts.

In the end, pilots have their issues, and mechanics have theirs. Somtimes they are the same (pay) and sometimes they are different (6&2/4&2). Never the twain shall meet. So, why not let's get off the union bashing box, and realize that there will be NO REAL UNION to complain to when the judge is done, because there will be nothing to complain about.

I honestly think that UAL will tell the judge that the IAM has a seat on the BOD, that they have known the numbers all along, and their participation in the union coalition, and the resultant T/A, was an indication that they understood both the need and the urgency. UAL has simply run out of money. Then, the judge will retire to his chambers, read the company proposal to save what little is left that is not already mortgaged or leveraged to the hilt, and he will ALLOW the company (and creditor committee) to proceed with their plans.

THIS DEAL WAS THE GOOD FAITH NEGOTIATIONS! If you guys do not fix the problems you have with it (and in very short order!), the judge will simply abrogate your contract IF THAT IS WHAT THE CREDITOR COMMITTEE ASKS HIM TO DO! This is NOT rocket science. If you are having trouble following the line of reasoning, call ANY Corporate BK attorney and ask them what is going to happen. Or better yet, call your buddies at USAir, I am sure they ALL know by now!

mancityfan

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 1028 PM Busdrvr wrote:

I am not privy to the details, so I cannot comment from a position of fact.

NO KIDDING
----------------
[/blockquote]

Hey, BusDrvr (or is it GuppyDrvr now?),

I was the one that said that quote, as I do not know what the AMR mechanics make (nor do I want to!) However, feel free to beat up on Bob for all the other misgivings!

mancityfan

 

[mastermechanic]

Regardless of your feelings towards me(basically the messenger), I know if you are driving a guppy that you are working harder than alot of your cohorts. There are many things I question among our rank and file, believe me. And even though you question my work ethic and profession ability, we are working people here. My training jacket just at UAL is several inches thick. I'm run/taxi on almost all fleets, CAT III etc. I also hold ASE ratings in both automotive and heavy truck. I operate my own part time automotive business. You think I'm a jerk and maybe I am, but on my days off I'm still wrenching on something. I'm trying hard like most people on this board. YOU KNOW ABOUT THE PROBLEMS AND INEQUITECES AT UAL. Don't act like it is not an issue. Did ALPA really think that everyone would buy into this forced ESOP II? Our union who supposedly wasn't even talking came back with an agreement with 141 and tried to sell it in just a couple of days??? What the hell was UAL/ALPA/IAM thinking?? I just finished watching 13 days and it reminds me that there is a hell of alot more going on than just you and me bashing it out on this board. You guys have got to convince almost 8000 trained technicians that there is something here worth saving, cause when that many people are willing to let the golden goose as you put it go, something is really, really wrong.

 

[mastermechanic]

OK...that does it Mancity. I am convinced. I will do whatever you order sir!!! But, ah....that leaves about 7799 more guys...would you like me to kill them sir...

 

[GGpillow]

To: DL 141 IAM Members Employed by United Airlines

Dear Sisters and Brothers:

The decision by members of District 141 to take part in an emergency recovery program at United Airlines shows the majority of Ramp & Stores, Public Contact, Security and Food Service employees clearly understand the dire circumstances facing United Airlines.

In short, our members “get it.†As I have said on a number of occasions, the current plight of UAL is certainly not of the employees making, but it will certainly take a collective effort from every United employee to keep this airline out of bankruptcy.

It is unfortunate that some members at United still question the need for participation in a recovery program. At this stage, the alternatives are so undeniably worse; I question the motives and judgment behind such a decision.

Of course, United’s troubles cannot be blamed exclusively on the economy or 9-11. Mistakes by past management are a factor as well. It is important to note significant change in United’s top management. We have unburdened this company from CEOs Goodwin and Creighton, President Rono Dutta, and Vice Presidents Aroucca, Studdert and Hobgood. More changes are needed and can be expected.

The new CEO, Glenn Tilton, has already made noteworthy changes and continues to recruit a new management team to turn this airline around. He has honored his pledge to do everything possible to keep this airline out of bankruptcy. But we have to give him the tools and support he needs to help protect our futures.

Some members have questioned why we should make such an effort to avoid bankruptcy. The answer lies in the difference between agreements modified voluntarily by members themselves or involuntarily by a bankruptcy judge.

If in spite of our best efforts United Airlines does need to file for bankruptcy, we have negotiated provisions in the agreements (1113 and 1114 letters) designed to protect our members and their contracts in bankruptcy court.

In the pending recovery plan, the IAM preserved your company-paid medical, dental and life insurance benefits. These benefits were won in decades of negotiations and are among the best in the country. A bankruptcy court judge can remove them all.

Also at risk are wage rates, paid sick leave and occupational injury leave, paid holidays, overtime by-pass, work rules, grievance procedures, seniority rights, overtime pay, travel benefits, paid uniforms, cleaning, pensions and severance pay. Simply put, every benefit we currently enjoy can be lost at the stroke of a judge’s pen.

If the misinformed individuals suggesting otherwise were such experts in bankruptcy law, they would be practicing law in a courtroom, not in a lunchroom. The IAM takes its responsibilities very seriously and we retained the very best financial and legal advisors possible. The threat to your contract and your future is real and immediate, and anyone telling you otherwise is only trying to advance their own agenda.

I know many of our members voted “no†in anger because they were facing layoffs. Despite the fact that our current job security provisions were retained in the Agreement, I can tell you in all candor that achieving additional job security just was not possible.

There are huge changes occurring in the airline industry. United and its employees are not immune. Our best hope for job security is a healthy, profitable, growing airline and the recovery plan is designed to move us in that direction.

United management will be meeting with District 141-M on Sunday, December 1, 2002. It has been reported in the press that United’s goals and financial targets have not changed. They still need the same cost savings from the Mechanic & Related employees to avoid bankruptcy.

I sincerely and truly hope that our co-workers in maintenance find a way to join the rest of United’s employees in the effort to save our airline, our contracts and our families’ futures. There is no positive alternative to the equality of sacrifice that is required of us all.

Time is truly of the essence. As your representative on the UAL Board of Directors, I have been advised a Board meeting will take place Monday morning, December 2, 2002. The purpose is to finalize our ATSB application or decide if we must file a petition under Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings. Additional meetings of the Board have been scheduled during the course of the coming week.

I must again thank the UAL membership of District 141 for their unbelievable support and solidarity. You recognized the urgency of our situation, and acted admirably. With the help of your District Officers, I will continue to do all I can on your behalf and for all IAM Members and employees of United Airlines.

In Solidarity,

S.R. (Randy) Canale
President
IAM District 141

 

[RV4]

WOW!

With management like:
S.R. (Randy) Canale
President
IAM District 141

WHO NEEDS A UNION?

I never thought the labor movement would degrade to such a disgrace.

 

[RV4]

Once again...

READ THIS:

http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/08_NWA_Archi...xh/peb320nw.PDF

And maybe everyone will get a better understanding of why the mechanics rejected the concessions.

 

[RV4]

Why do mechanics have contempt for the IAM?

The IAM had to use management position inclusion to prevent a democractic representation election....

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter200...001/28n089.html

IAM's Challenges

The IAM supplemented its initial position statement on April 17, 2001, stating that the Carrier's list was deficient because certain job categories were omitted, specifically: Maintenance Planner/Schedulers; Technical Specialists; Maintenance Operations Control Coordinators; and Ground Service Equipment Technical Coordinators. The IAM cited US Airways, Inc., 28 NMB 104 (2000); US Airways, Inc., 28 NMB 91 (2000); and US Airways, Inc., 26 NMB 359 (1999) in support of its position. Based upon this supplementary position statement, on April 20, 2001, the Investigators requested that United provide additional information on the job functions IAM specified by May 1, 2001.

The IAM submitted its challenges and objections to the List of Potential Eligible Voters on May 1, 2001. The IAM contended that employees in the following job titles should be included:

Planner - Aircraft Maintenance

Planner - System Aircraft Maintenance

Planner - System Maintenance

Planner - Maintenance Procedures

Specialist - Maintenance Line

Specialist - Maintenance

Staff Specialist - Maintenance

Specialist - Ground Equipment

Staff Specialist - Ground Equipment

Sr. Staff Specialist - Ground Equipment

Specialist - Flight Simulator

Staff Specialist - Flight Simulator

Controller - Engine Maintenance

Controller - System Aircraft Maintenance

Coordinator - Plant and Equipment Maintenance

NOTE: These positions were non-union and free of dues obligation, yet the IAM protested the exclusion in election authorization card requirements.

It is my understanding that this inclusion caused the election to be denied by 4 (four) cards.

Mechanics have every right to be upset.

 

[DB Cooper]

Sorry, Mr. Canale , the IAM can't have it both ways. The 141M leadership endorsed/recommended the current mechanics agreement which permits 20% OSV farmout of mechanics work. Perhaps those no voters you targeted in your letter would not be faced with layoffs if your colleague Mr. Ford had secured iron clad job security provisions beyond LOA 94-5 . After the first PEB was rejected, many aspects of that agreement were negotiable.