mechanics lose in court

[RV4]

Show us the proof that AMFA National ever dictated anything close to:

17.5% Base Wage Redcution
5 Paid Holidays Eliminated
5 Paid Vacation Days Eliminated
50% Reduction in Sick Leave Pay
70 Day Reduction in Injury on Duty Pay
$5.00 Per Hour License Pay Cut for Shop Mechanics
3500 Union Members Stripped of Job Security Provisions

There is a damn big difference between AMFA and the TWU and everyone who is represented by either of the two KNOWS IT!

That is why AMFA is making gains throughout the industry while the lowly TWU simply leads the largest carrier's pay and benefit package backwards some 50 Years!

The TWU jobs for concessions pushers are about as worthless as they come.

Tell us all again CIO, how the Tulsa Local members voted to staple the TWA employees, only to be stripped of their own job security provisions and sent to the street?

You can only defend such travesty using an alias, because knowing your identity would lead to you being eliminated from the payroll of the industrial union concession peddlers.

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 7/6/2003 9:43:55 AM Checking it Out wrote:


Ask Alaska Mechanics what happens when they are promised Attorneys during Negotiations?
Ask them about Baseball Style Negotiations?
Ask them about their Future Retirement plans?

Compliments of The-Mechanic

----------------
​

And while you are at it, compare their current contract terms and pay raise to that of the TWU. Ask them if they took a 17.5% paycut and gave up vacation and Holiday pay like the superior TWU did.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 7/3/2003 623 PM Checking it Out wrote:


How many times did the judge Indicate the TWU members would be worse off in Bankruptcy during the proceedings?

AA was in better shape than both USAIR and UAL. Why did they end up with a better deal in BK than we did out of BK?

The TWU Members voted to ratify the agreement and the errors were not enough to change the outcome of the vote.

Yea but did the right members cast their ballotts or were ballotts changed by people that had other peoples pin numbers?

The Judge Indicated AA and the TWU International had every right to pursue Attorney fees from these Individuals who had a baseless Lawsuit.

Oh really? Were you there?

The attorneys for the locals called and asked this not be done!

I here rumors from some of Bobs friends that local 562 is now being looked at for mis-appropriating funds for use other than their intended porpose and That Bob Owens is spending time home when he is on the clock and about diverting funds for personal use.

You are making things up now. Now I know why you use an alias.


Everytime the amfa supports go up against the TWU they have lost or settled out of court. Why is this? I suspect because the majority is incompitant!

I do not see how anyone would ever consider amfa! knowing these individuals above might make it in to represent someone! Help us all if this should happen!

Well actually I already represent TWU members. I am elected and accountable to the members who are free to look and see where every penny that this local recieves goes. Unlike Jim Little and other appointees who are not accountable nor do we have access to see where the funds that the International gets goes. Did you get a car too?

Miss. Dave! I think you missed your mark!




HAVE A HAPPY
FORTH OF JULY
WEEKEND!

ALL YOU BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF THE TWU AND ALL
OTHER UNIONS AFFILIATED WITH THE AFL-CIO!


TWU SOLIDARITY GOES ALONG WAY!



----------------​

 

[AAmech]

----------------
On 7/7/2003 805 AM Bob Owens wrote:

----------------
On 7/3/2003 623 PM Checking it Out wrote:


AA was in better shape than both USAIR and UAL. Why did they end up with a better deal in BK than we did out of BK?


----------------
​

I guess your not happy being the only guy claiming UAL got a better deal than we did, now your claiming AA was in better shape than UAL? Everything I''ve read has said AA would have much more difficulty securing financing than UAL as AA has far less to offer its potential saviors. UAL has a better route system and the coveted Narita Hub in Tokyo. AA brings very little to the table.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 7/5/2003 1001 PM FWAAA wrote:

----------------
Hope you know welding better than you know the law of equitable relief (like injunctions).

Admittedly the law does favor corporations above citizens.

If you knew thing one about law, then you'd understand that the judges have ruled according to law. When seeking an injunction, not only must the moving party demonstrate a likelihood of success on the merits, but must also demonstrate irreparable harm if the injunction is not granted. Since the TWU locals and the FAs did not show irreparable harm (and AA proved it would be harmed beyond repair if the injunction were granted now), the judges made the only lawful decision. The injunctions sought against AA were correctly denied.

AA did not "prove" anything, they did not have to. Since Judges do not have to live under their own decisions they do not feel that our $20,000/year loss is "irrepable harm".

The main point of the suit was whether or not we have the right to self determination in that we vote on the conditions under which we work. The Judge decided that we do not. To say that because its "better" that we should be denied to vote on it is a poor excuse, how can you decide what is "better" for me? Shouldnt I make that decision?



If, after trials on the merits, the TWU locals and the FAs prevail, then the judges can order relief. Until then, the status quo is the only lawful decision.

Too bad the TWU's lawyers and FA's lawyers haven't been able to convince you of that legal reality.

----------------
​

Our Constitution is pretty clear in that it says "any", not some, not if its worse, not if Sonny says so. It says all. Since there are different structures and Constitutions each case is different. Our structure does not give the members the ability to chose their top representatives, only Local leaders that have limited powers. This has been a source of contention for all the time that I've been here. Over the years I've heard the International repeatedly say that the members have democratic accountability in that the "International" imposes nothing without consent, consent from either the members or the Presidents council ( though the International provides Presidents the ability to deny how they voted because they normally do not record how each President votes). They maintained that this was guaranteed through their Constitution. Now the International has won the right to violate its own Constitution, if this were an emergeny, a brief temporary situation, where temporary conditions were imposed, that could be justified, but to put in massive permanent changes for a term of five years is absurd. The Judge did not take this and many other considerations into account.This and many other details would have been brought out in a trial.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 7/7/2003 8:59:11 AM AAmech wrote:

​

I guess your not happy being the only guy claiming UAL got a better deal than we did, now your claiming AA was in better shape than UAL? Everything I've read has said AA would have much more difficulty securing financing than UAL as AA has far less to offer its potential saviors. UAL has a better route system and the coveted Narita Hub in Tokyo. AA brings very little to the table.

---------------
I doubt that I'm the only guy, most that I've spoken to feel the same.

AA brings very little to the table? That funny I thought that we were the biggest airline out there that made more money than anyone else throught the 90s. What is our latest load factor?

UAL-76 cents/share
AMR $10.50 share
Who is having a harder time getting money?​

 

[Bob Owens]

Shouldnt the decision of what is "better" be left to those who work under the agreement?

The International has always said that all Letters of agreement were presented at and voted on by the Presidents council. Was this? The fact is that Jim Little, who makes $140,000 and did not have to give up anything made this decision, not the members who were affected by it.

I still doubt that we would have done worse in BK. I still say that AA''s losses were fluffed up by writing off nearly $1billion in "Goodwill", that in BK we would not be taking on more new aircraft (didnt they receive 3 new aircraft last month while still having aircraft that they (pre)paid leases for sitting in the desert?). Did they accellerate depreciation and use other accounting tricks like in the early 90s? Was ECLAT looking for such things or were they merely reinforcing an earlier presentation made in behalf of AA?

We dont care about lost jobs and benifits? The fact is that several of the needless concessions given by the TWU resulted and will continue to result in more lost jobs. The loss of one weeks vacation means that at least 575 more workers will lose thier jobs. The loss of sick time is also meant to reduce headcount. The changed system protection date resulted in thousands of lost jobs. The fact is that we gave up jobs, lost benifits, lost wages for what? What guarantees did any of us get for a five year committment that will leave us with a real income of about $40,000 per year in 2008? The fact is that Jim Little failed the members at AA, but then again he does not work for us, does he?

 

[FWAAA]

----------------
On 7/7/2003 8:44:26 AM Bob Owens wrote:

----------------
On 7/5/2003 1001 PM FWAAA wrote:

----------------
Hope you know welding better than you know the law of equitable relief (like injunctions).

Admittedly the law does favor corporations above citizens.

If you knew thing one about law, then you''d understand that the judges have ruled according to law.  When seeking an injunction, not only must the moving party demonstrate a likelihood of success on the merits, but must also demonstrate irreparable harm if the injunction is not granted.  Since the TWU locals and the FAs did not show irreparable harm (and AA proved it would be harmed beyond repair if the injunction were granted now), the judges made the only lawful decision.  The injunctions sought against AA were correctly denied.

AA did not "prove" anything, they did not have to. Since Judges do not have to live under their own decisions they do not feel that our $20,000/year loss is "irrepable harm".

The main point of the suit was whether or not we have the right to self determination in that we vote on the conditions under which we work. The Judge decided that we do not. To say that because its "better" that we should be denied to vote on it is a poor excuse, how can you decide what is "better" for me? Shouldnt I make that decision?



If, after trials on the merits, the TWU locals and the FAs prevail, then the judges can order relief.  Until then, the status quo is the only lawful decision.

Too bad the TWU''s lawyers and FA''s lawyers haven''t been able to convince you of that legal reality.

----------------​

----------------​

Mr. Owens, Irreparable harm means harm that can''t be fixed with a money damages verdict later. Can''t your $20,000 be fixed in the future if you should prevail on the merits?

Yes, you were hoodwinked because of the "Fluff" writeoffs.

Again, you misunderstand the procedure here - if, after a trial, you show that you deserve to win, you can get money to make you whole. If you had been granted the injunction now, and then lost the trial, there is no way you and your friends could make AA whole. Period.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 7/7/2003 8:53:32 AM FWAAA wrote:

----------------​

Mr. Owens, Irreparable harm means harm that can''t be fixed with a money damages verdict later. Can''t your $20,000 be fixed in the future if you should prevail on the merits?

Yes, you were hoodwinked because of the "Fluff" writeoffs.

Again, you misunderstand the procedure here - if, after a trial, you show that you deserve to win, you can get money to make you whole. If you had been granted the injunction now, and then lost the trial, there is no way you and your friends could make AA whole. Period.

----------------
​

Wrong.
All that was requested was another vote. The concessions could have remained in place until the results of the vote.

 

[AAmech]

Well Bob I can see you continue not to understand the BK process. UAL''s shares are still being traded OTC but they are WORTHLESS. The court will soon cancell those outstanding shares and issue NEW stock which will be significantly higher than 76 cents. Besides, AA does not benifit from this higher stock price anyway unless its selling shares it owns.

 

[FWAAA]

----------------
On 7/8/2003 8:15:40 AM AAmech wrote:


Well Bob I can see you continue not to understand the BK process.  UAL''s shares are still being traded OTC but they are WORTHLESS.  The court will soon cancell those outstanding shares and issue NEW stock which will be significantly higher than 76 cents.   Besides,  AA does not benifit from this higher stock price anyway unless its selling shares it owns.

----------------​

Very true. But I sure am benefitting from the 800% runup in AMR stock in the last three months!

Thanks, AA employees!

 

[jake]

Okay Dave, I’ll take this slowly so even you can understand it. The intent of the preliminary injunction that was filed by your AMFA supporting pukes was to argue that the TWU International did not have the authority to sign the agreement and that it had to be re-voted. There were several arguments but there were three main ones. First, that a significant number of people did not receive PINs and therefore did not have an opportunity to vote. Secondly, that the TWU didn’t follow the Presidents Council by-laws by not providing a tentative agreement to the membership for review, thirty days prior to ratification. Thirdly that the TWU made significant changes to the agreement after ratification therefore making the vote invalid.

Let’s take these one at a time shall we? First, you have helped spread the false rumor that 3400 people did not receive a PIN thereby affecting the outcome of the vote. Let’s look at the truth. The TWU submitted uncontested evidence showing that only 699 people in both ratifications (joint and mechanic) complained about not receiving pin numbers and most of those were taken care of. Secondly, the Presidents council voted unanimously (including the president of 562) to change the by- laws with regard to the 30 day requirement and to authorize the use of an automated counting system in order to accomplish the vote by the April 15 deadline given to each of the Unions by Mr. Carty. No one even attempted to refute this in court. Third, The TWU made significant improvements in the agreement due to the dishonesty of Mr. Carty. Local 562 claimed that each time one of our contracts is modified in any way the entire contract must be re-voted. The TWU made clear that, while most modifications must be ratified, modifications that were clearly improvements – such as early openers or extra profit sharing – did not have to be ratified, particularly when to do so would lead to a bankruptcy. The judge found the TWU’s position was more reasonable and, like the judge in the flight attendant case, she also ruled that everyone – TWU members, members of other unions, as well as the public – would have fared much worse in a bankruptcy. This judge is from the same district where AA would have filed for bankruptcy, and may have reviewed any decision made by a Bankruptcy Judge. So, contrary to everything you and your cronies have told the membership, two federal courts have now directly stated that we would not have been better off in bankruptcy but instead, as the flight attendant judge stated, that a bankruptcy filing “would have dramatically adverse consequences for AA’s employees.â€

I am aware that you claim not to have any confidence in our current legal system. Yes, the same legal system that you claim would’ve protected us in the event of a bankruptcy filing and the same legal system that included you as a part of mechanic and related. Otherwise AMFA wouldn’t even have given you a sniff because you are NOT an A&P certificate holder! As far as making fools of people, you and the leadership of 562 are guilty! You are guilty of not providing responsible and honest leadership to the unfortunate people who believe your lies. These people work hard every day and expect not to be lied to. The TWU informed all of the presidents and members alike why they did what they did. You and your band of arm- chair lawyers can’t get it through you thick head that you are not experts. You choose to spin the truth in an attempt to destroy a Union in which you could not get elected. Also, even though it wasn’t a part of the injunction hearing, the Judge decided to help you out with another piece of information. The language actually mirrored the ruling that the flight attendants received in their suit. She chose to say that we would be “worse off†had we gone to bankruptcy. Does that language ring a bell? It should, the TWU has been saying that all along. Are you guys idiots or what? You and your AMFA supporting pukes made fools of yourselves in front of the entire country by filing a law suit that you simply had no chance to win. The TWU told you exactly what was going to happen and it did and you and your boys chose to ignore it, is that responsible? Now, you explain that to your people!

 

[RV4]

jake,

I fear the TWU Local 514 Archived e-mails have made you a liar along with the reast of the Company Union stooges down on Pine Street and Hurst, Texas.

Or maybe you don''t lie, but that makes TWU Local 514 e-mail full of lies now doesn''t it?

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 7/8/2003 141 PM jake wrote:

Secondly, the Presidents council voted unanimously (including the president of 562) to change the by- laws with regard to the 30 day requirement and to authorize the use of an automated counting system in order to accomplish the vote by the April 15 deadline given to each of the Unions by Mr. Carty. No one even attempted to refute this in court.
----------------​

If the Presidents Council took such a vote and Jim Little knew about it, then why this e-mail from Local 514? Why "SUSPEND VOTING" for this reason "We are unable to provide the full text language of the tentative agreements" if the Presidents Council voted to change the requirement? Is somebody telling LIES here?


Bulletin: Voting has been suspended
B U L L E T I N

We have just received the below letter from the ATD and all voting has been suspended at this time for the below stated reason. We will keep the membership informed if the voting is resumed.

We have also been informed that a telephone employee of the AAA has issued incorrect information to some of our members such as informing them that if they did not cast a vote it would be considered a vote “yesâ€￾. This is an incorrect statement!

We have contacted the ATD and they have assured us that 50 percent plus 1 of those who vote will be required to vote Yes for passage of the new TA.

We are working under very unusual circumstances and none of this process is the norm. These developments are unexpected and the ATD is making every effort to resolve differences with the Company at this time.

We appreciate the members patience and indulgence. We will make every effort to inform you promptly of any changes in this voting process.
In solidarity,
John McDonald, Vice President
bcpeiu 330
afl-cio, clc

April 9, 2003
TO: All TWU Members
RE: Full Text on Tentative Agreements

We are unable to provide the full text language of the tentative agreements at this time. We are in dispute with American Airlines, Inc. over what was agreed to by our Committees at the time of the Tentative Agreement. Until such time that we have full text language available, for our members to review, we are suspending all voting.

Thank you for your understanding.

James C. Little. Director Air Transport Division
Intl. Adminstrative Vice President

Gary Yingst, AA System Coordinator
Vice President

View the archived message for yourself:
[url="http://www.twu514.org/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi?flavor=archive&id=20030409185144&list=TWU514"]http://www.twu514.org/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cg...144&list=TWU514[/URL]

And Here is another version of the same message:


Director's Update - ALL VOTING SUSPENDED - 04-09-03
Director's Update - ALL VOTING SUSPENDED - 04-09-03

April 9, 2003

TO: All TWU Members

RE: Full Text on Tentative Agreements

Dear Sisters & Brothers:

We are unable to provide the full text language of the tentative agreements at this time. We are in dispute with American Airlines, Inc. over what was agreed to by our Committees at the time of the Tentative Agreement.

Until such time that we have full text language available, for our members to review, we are suspending all voting.

Thank you for your understanding.

Sincerely, & fraternally,

James C. Little
Director Air Transport Division
Intl. Administrative Vice President

Gary Yingst
AA System Coordinator
Vice President

[url="http://www.twu514.org/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi?flavor=archive&id=20030409173456&list=TWU514"]http://www.twu514.org/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cg...456&list=TWU514[/URL]

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 7/8/2003 141 PM jake wrote:

You choose to spin the truth in an attempt to destroy a Union in which you could not get elected. Also, even though it wasn’t a part of the injunction hearing, the Judge decided to help you out with another piece of information. The language actually mirrored the ruling that the flight attendants received in their suit. She chose to say that we would be “worse offâ€￾ had we gone to bankruptcy. Does that language ring a bell? It should, the TWU has been saying that all along. Are you guys idiots or what? You and your AMFA supporting pukes made fools of yourselves in front of the entire country by filing a law suit that you simply had no chance to win. The TWU told you exactly what was going to happen and it did and you and your boys chose to ignore it, is that responsible? Now, you explain that to your people!


----------------​

I find it most interesting that you call "MEMBERS" of the twu idiots, pukes, boys, fools, and the reference the TWU as some other institution, seperate from these TWU members and Local Officers that have had their fill of the Dictator Leaders.

WHO IS THE TWU IN YOUR MIND...jake?

In your mind, are only those that agree with the leaders and those willing to accept the oppression of the "TWU", the "UNION"? And everyone else is idiots, pukes, boys, fools?