mechanics lose in court
- Thread starter AAviator
- Start date
- Aug 20, 2002
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- 1,555
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On 7/15/2003 12:22:53 PM j7915 wrote:
Buck why don''t you stop being so cute and clever? You repeat the same lies over and over and fail to a mention the obvious, far too many TWU members, in Tulsa at least, are voting for the conservative, republican, etc. etc. party. They are voting for issues that have nothing to do with their paycheck, and then you come up and accuse the AFL-CIO of not having any clout.
As an analogy: you sound like land owners who live along the coast, complaining when they are told not to build there and then complain because the government did not protect them from hurricanes.
As to the 38% outsourcing limit, AMFA is the first union to put actual numbers in their contract. I doubt if a judge will find for the union, the contract does not preclude outsourcing, it just requires penalties. But I suppose it is better to contract out than to have the same work done in house, at the same rate with better benefits than MROs pay.
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And the TWU and the AFL-CIO use dues payers money for issues that are not related to labor and especially aviation. Why is it that the education sector of the AFL-CIO and the TWU are not informing their members of the evils of voting Republican. They need your help because they cannot think for themselves. If the AFL-CIO had any clout, the would be stronger than 13%-16% of the work force today. It is because they are not in tune with the membership. They like you are still practicing archaic unionism. They no longer believe in the socialists BS you generate.On 7/15/2003 12:22:53 PM j7915 wrote:
Buck why don''t you stop being so cute and clever? You repeat the same lies over and over and fail to a mention the obvious, far too many TWU members, in Tulsa at least, are voting for the conservative, republican, etc. etc. party. They are voting for issues that have nothing to do with their paycheck, and then you come up and accuse the AFL-CIO of not having any clout.
As an analogy: you sound like land owners who live along the coast, complaining when they are told not to build there and then complain because the government did not protect them from hurricanes.
As to the 38% outsourcing limit, AMFA is the first union to put actual numbers in their contract. I doubt if a judge will find for the union, the contract does not preclude outsourcing, it just requires penalties. But I suppose it is better to contract out than to have the same work done in house, at the same rate with better benefits than MROs pay.
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Yes and you sound like you are using dues money for the liberal left wing agenda that the membership does not condone and shows you at the voting booth. It is your problem fix it. Or at least tell us how to fix it and quit whining about it.
You know that the FARMOUT work the is done INHOUSE is not done at the same rate. You are aware of the SRP/OSM classification and the 17.5% -38% paycut that the membership has taken?
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
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On 7/15/2003 2:30:11 PM jake wrote:
Buck,
I think we lost you!! Didn’t you buckle up? Ok very clearly now…. two things. One, you don’t want to talk about Northwest because you get your butt kicked! Second, Show us some proof that senator Dayton heeded your call and appealed “first†to congress. (Surely there is a congressional record) It surely is important that there is someone making the argument to save our work. It’s also important to point out who is making the argument because you guys lie about it!!
You are such a joke; you have NEVER had any effect on any senator or congressman. You and Dave (Mo and Larry) make so many claims and have absolutely no documentation. I can believe it would surprise you if the AFL-CIO was intervening on mechanics behalf because you think that the current administration has your best interests at heart. Wake up! They are currently trying to take away you overtime pay! As far as the 38% pay cut….don’t you think the OSM’s suffered enough? If AMFA were here, they’d likely use the same techniques that they have used at Northwest and Alaska. From 1998 to present Northwest has laid off about 5000 mechanics due to the outsourcing language, which they agreed to. And as for you getting yours? You (my brother) are still building the best retirement in the industry!
Once again, AMFA’s philosophy is….layoff all the OSM’s so I don’t have to take a pay cut!
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What Northwest does no longer is my concern butt kicked or not. I am concerned about the TWU cutting the pay and benefits of the membership at American Airlines.On 7/15/2003 2:30:11 PM jake wrote:
Buck,
I think we lost you!! Didn’t you buckle up? Ok very clearly now…. two things. One, you don’t want to talk about Northwest because you get your butt kicked! Second, Show us some proof that senator Dayton heeded your call and appealed “first†to congress. (Surely there is a congressional record) It surely is important that there is someone making the argument to save our work. It’s also important to point out who is making the argument because you guys lie about it!!
You are such a joke; you have NEVER had any effect on any senator or congressman. You and Dave (Mo and Larry) make so many claims and have absolutely no documentation. I can believe it would surprise you if the AFL-CIO was intervening on mechanics behalf because you think that the current administration has your best interests at heart. Wake up! They are currently trying to take away you overtime pay! As far as the 38% pay cut….don’t you think the OSM’s suffered enough? If AMFA were here, they’d likely use the same techniques that they have used at Northwest and Alaska. From 1998 to present Northwest has laid off about 5000 mechanics due to the outsourcing language, which they agreed to. And as for you getting yours? You (my brother) are still building the best retirement in the industry!
Once again, AMFA’s philosophy is….layoff all the OSM’s so I don’t have to take a pay cut!
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I did not call Senator Dayton, I called Nickles, Inhofe and Carson of Oklahoma. That is where TUL is.
The only reason the AFL-CIO would intervene would be because of the Fleet Service jobs they stand to lose when airlines outsource. It was not until the majority of the TWU ( Fleet Service ) was threaten that the TWU and the AFL-CIO acted. IT is all about dues for them. Why would a Fleet Service Clerk care about the maintenance going overseas?
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On 7/16/2003 1:05:39 AM Buck wrote:
And the TWU and the AFL-CIO use dues payers money for issues that are not related to labor and especially aviation. Why is it that the education sector of the AFL-CIO and the TWU are not informing their members of the evils of voting Republican. They need your help because they cannot think for themselves. If the AFL-CIO had any clout, the would be stronger than 13%-16% of the work force today. It is because they are not in tune with the membership. They like you are still practicing archaic unionism. They no longer believe in the socialists BS you generate.
Yes and you sound like you are using dues money for the liberal left wing agenda that the membership does not condone and shows you at the voting booth. It is your problem fix it. Or at least tell us how to fix it and quit whining about it.
You know that the FARMOUT work the is done INHOUSE is not done at the same rate. You are aware of the SRP/OSM classification and the 17.5% -38% paycut that the membership has taken?
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On 7/16/2003 1:05:39 AM Buck wrote:
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On 7/15/2003 12:22:53 PM j7915 wrote:
Buck why don''t you stop being so cute and clever? You repeat the same lies over and over and fail to a mention the obvious, far too many TWU members, in Tulsa at least, are voting for the conservative, republican, etc. etc. party. They are voting for issues that have nothing to do with their paycheck, and then you come up and accuse the AFL-CIO of not having any clout.
As an analogy: you sound like land owners who live along the coast, complaining when they are told not to build there and then complain because the government did not protect them from hurricanes.
As to the 38% outsourcing limit, AMFA is the first union to put actual numbers in their contract. I doubt if a judge will find for the union, the contract does not preclude outsourcing, it just requires penalties. But I suppose it is better to contract out than to have the same work done in house, at the same rate with better benefits than MROs pay.
----------------
On 7/15/2003 12:22:53 PM j7915 wrote:
Buck why don''t you stop being so cute and clever? You repeat the same lies over and over and fail to a mention the obvious, far too many TWU members, in Tulsa at least, are voting for the conservative, republican, etc. etc. party. They are voting for issues that have nothing to do with their paycheck, and then you come up and accuse the AFL-CIO of not having any clout.
As an analogy: you sound like land owners who live along the coast, complaining when they are told not to build there and then complain because the government did not protect them from hurricanes.
As to the 38% outsourcing limit, AMFA is the first union to put actual numbers in their contract. I doubt if a judge will find for the union, the contract does not preclude outsourcing, it just requires penalties. But I suppose it is better to contract out than to have the same work done in house, at the same rate with better benefits than MROs pay.
----------------
And the TWU and the AFL-CIO use dues payers money for issues that are not related to labor and especially aviation. Why is it that the education sector of the AFL-CIO and the TWU are not informing their members of the evils of voting Republican. They need your help because they cannot think for themselves. If the AFL-CIO had any clout, the would be stronger than 13%-16% of the work force today. It is because they are not in tune with the membership. They like you are still practicing archaic unionism. They no longer believe in the socialists BS you generate.
Yes and you sound like you are using dues money for the liberal left wing agenda that the membership does not condone and shows you at the voting booth. It is your problem fix it. Or at least tell us how to fix it and quit whining about it.
You know that the FARMOUT work the is done INHOUSE is not done at the same rate. You are aware of the SRP/OSM classification and the 17.5% -38% paycut that the membership has taken?
----------------
Buck, is it your intention to distract everyone from something? The AFL-CIO and the local TWU has been warning the membership concerning the dangers looming from the right wing. How about the OT legislation? Or maybe you are correct the 13% of americans in unions are too stupid to see the writing on the wall.
It was you and RV4 who were questioning the need to fight RTW, or any other labor legislation that "does not affect aircraft workers because we fall under the RLA or we are unionized".
If you feel that the three hot button items of the conservatives is what is important to the membership, guns, prayer and abortion, then by all means keep going the way you are moving.
No, I really don''t like having to use my money for any political work, but if you share AMFADave''s ecstatic opinion of our supreme war lord and president select then you must be ecstatic over the economic mess that is looming.
Of course the "masses were upset" over Bill C''s lying about actions that so many, men at least, seem to want to boast or dream about, unfortunately too much and too looudly in the work place. But that is OK, guy talk, starting wars with deception is OK also, as long as repubs do it?
It would save lots of discussions if you would finally settle the issue of the OSMs, cost of work etc. You keep changing position. You claim that the shop rates are in fact outsourcing inhouse, when challenged as to whether you would prefer the work would go elsewhere you procceed to bring up the contract concessions. Go find some amt who bumped into an OSM slot, ask him if he would have preferred to get laidoff instead.
Buck admit you would be pefectly satisfied with the SWA business model, only you can''t quite figure out where you will fit in. I recommend a transfer to the line somewhere for a learning or re-learning experience. 4D maybe hot right now but at least it is shady
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
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On 7/16/2003 10:29:04 AM j7915 wrote:
Yea and the Right Wing cut my pay......On 7/16/2003 10:29:04 AM j7915 wrote:
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Buck, is it your intention to distract everyone from something? The AFL-CIO and the local TWU has been warning the membership concerning the dangers looming from the right wing. How about the OT legislation? Or maybe you are correct the 13% of americans in unions are too stupid to see the writing on the wall.
It was you and RV4 who were questioning the need to fight RTW, or any other labor legislation that "does not affect aircraft workers because we fall under the RLA or we are unionized".
If you feel that the three hot button items of the conservatives is what is important to the membership, guns, prayer and abortion, then by all means keep going the way you are moving.
No, I really don''t like having to use my money for any political work, but if you share AMFADave''s ecstatic opinion of our supreme war lord and president select then you must be ecstatic over the economic mess that is looming.
Of course the "masses were upset" over Bill C''s lying about actions that so many, men at least, seem to want to boast or dream about, unfortunately too much and too looudly in the work place. But that is OK, guy talk, starting wars with deception is OK also, as long as repubs do it?
It would save lots of discussions if you would finally settle the issue of the OSMs, cost of work etc. You keep changing position. You claim that the shop rates are in fact outsourcing inhouse, when challenged as to whether you would prefer the work would go elsewhere you procceed to bring up the contract concessions. Go find some amt who bumped into an OSM slot, ask him if he would have preferred to get laidoff instead.
Buck admit you would be pefectly satisfied with the SWA business model, only you can''t quite figure out where you will fit in. I recommend a transfer to the line somewhere for a learning or re-learning experience. 4D maybe hot right now but at least it is shady
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Buck, is it your intention to distract everyone from something? The AFL-CIO and the local TWU has been warning the membership concerning the dangers looming from the right wing. How about the OT legislation? Or maybe you are correct the 13% of americans in unions are too stupid to see the writing on the wall.
It was you and RV4 who were questioning the need to fight RTW, or any other labor legislation that "does not affect aircraft workers because we fall under the RLA or we are unionized".
If you feel that the three hot button items of the conservatives is what is important to the membership, guns, prayer and abortion, then by all means keep going the way you are moving.
No, I really don''t like having to use my money for any political work, but if you share AMFADave''s ecstatic opinion of our supreme war lord and president select then you must be ecstatic over the economic mess that is looming.
Of course the "masses were upset" over Bill C''s lying about actions that so many, men at least, seem to want to boast or dream about, unfortunately too much and too looudly in the work place. But that is OK, guy talk, starting wars with deception is OK also, as long as repubs do it?
It would save lots of discussions if you would finally settle the issue of the OSMs, cost of work etc. You keep changing position. You claim that the shop rates are in fact outsourcing inhouse, when challenged as to whether you would prefer the work would go elsewhere you procceed to bring up the contract concessions. Go find some amt who bumped into an OSM slot, ask him if he would have preferred to get laidoff instead.
Buck admit you would be pefectly satisfied with the SWA business model, only you can''t quite figure out where you will fit in. I recommend a transfer to the line somewhere for a learning or re-learning experience. 4D maybe hot right now but at least it is shady
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I never said they were stupid. Iasked you about the ability to educate the membership.
The issue I brought forth was the need to spend dues money on RTW when it does not affect those under the RLA. If you cannot get the membership to vote along your party line comrade, that is not my fault. Besides a TUL judge ruled that RTW was unconstitutional, right? But wait , that was thrown out. I never said that RTW did not affect the unionized worker. I repeat it does not affect those under the RLA.
Your three hot items, bears a lot of truth, but not necessarily for me, but 60% of those voting consevative at TUL. Lets look at each item.
1) Guns: Are you going to attempt to tell a Local 514 member that legislation to at the least limit his right to bears is more important than any labot issue? Good Luck. This is the weakest of the Three.
2) Prayer: Are you going to attempt to remove prayer form the workplace, for political reasons? Good Luck.
3) Abortion: You are really sticking your neck out there. Most of the members at TUL Local 514 will take a stand against your attempt to politically change their position on this issue. This a moral issue to them.
This is why you do not understand your members they do not see your form of politics as principled enough to change their moral position.
The economy started it''s slide in April 2000.
Guy talk at work has had many put their job in jeopardy.
As for your reference to Bush and the use of Clintons CIA man, nuff said.
I have in the past stated that my position is that the company should layoff and protect the wage and benefit gains made by labor. The issue isn ot whether an OSM would agree with me or not. The issue is at what cost do the rest of the workers have to pay to keep the TWU fully employed? Again lets have American open repair stations in every state and pay minimum wage. Full employment, right.
4D has nothing to do with the issues facing the mechanic and related. I would gladly bump to a line station no matter the weather or working conditions. What I said about SWA was that AA continually stated under Carty that we need to be more like them. I said then do it.
Well Buck you pretty well admit that the TWU and the AFL-CIO has given the membership information and guidance concerning elections and political issues. Unfortunately it seems that when the right wing puts out voting recommendations then it is all important and correct, when an AFL-CIO affiliated union does it then it must be propaganda and "they are telling me how to vote".
Well it is not all propaganda, it is forwarning information from people who understand Washington better than most. It is guidance to inform the members who to vote for so that lobbying efforts will be worth while.
Remember Easley''s comments regarding the calls to his office when RTW was being debated? How many callers were union members, and of those how many were registerred voters and how many were registerred republicans but now they wanted a Democrat to please listen to them?
I am glad that you are so willing to transferr to a line station, undoubtedly bumping some guy who spend all these years in the weather, holding a place for you, until you were run out of your job. But that is way seniority and unions work brother.
Well it is not all propaganda, it is forwarning information from people who understand Washington better than most. It is guidance to inform the members who to vote for so that lobbying efforts will be worth while.
Remember Easley''s comments regarding the calls to his office when RTW was being debated? How many callers were union members, and of those how many were registerred voters and how many were registerred republicans but now they wanted a Democrat to please listen to them?
I am glad that you are so willing to transferr to a line station, undoubtedly bumping some guy who spend all these years in the weather, holding a place for you, until you were run out of your job. But that is way seniority and unions work brother.
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
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On 7/16/2003 12
45 PM j7915 wrote:
Well Buck you pretty well admit that the TWU and the AFL-CIO has given the membership information and guidance concerning elections and political issues. Unfortunately it seems that when the right wing puts out voting recommendations then it is all important and correct, when an AFL-CIO affiliated union does it then it must be propaganda and "they are telling me how to vote".
Well it is not all propaganda, it is forwarning information from people who understand Washington better than most. It is guidance to inform the members who to vote for so that lobbying efforts will be worth while.
Remember Easley''s comments regarding the calls to his office when RTW was being debated? How many callers were union members, and of those how many were registerred voters and how many were registerred republicans but now they wanted a Democrat to please listen to them?
I am glad that you are so willing to transferr to a line station, undoubtedly bumping some guy who spend all these years in the weather, holding a place for you, until you were run out of your job. But that is way seniority and unions work brother.
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I never sais that the TWU did not supply the membeship with a list of canidates that in their opinion were the proper choice for labor. I did say that the membership does not always agree with the list you supply. Nothing to do with propaganda, but with reality. The majority of the membership at Local 514 votes GOP and these are your numbers.On 7/16/2003 12
45 PM j7915 wrote:Well Buck you pretty well admit that the TWU and the AFL-CIO has given the membership information and guidance concerning elections and political issues. Unfortunately it seems that when the right wing puts out voting recommendations then it is all important and correct, when an AFL-CIO affiliated union does it then it must be propaganda and "they are telling me how to vote".
Well it is not all propaganda, it is forwarning information from people who understand Washington better than most. It is guidance to inform the members who to vote for so that lobbying efforts will be worth while.
Remember Easley''s comments regarding the calls to his office when RTW was being debated? How many callers were union members, and of those how many were registerred voters and how many were registerred republicans but now they wanted a Democrat to please listen to them?
I am glad that you are so willing to transferr to a line station, undoubtedly bumping some guy who spend all these years in the weather, holding a place for you, until you were run out of your job. But that is way seniority and unions work brother.
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Again RTW does not apply to those under the RLA.
I am all for seniority.
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On 7/15/2003 2:52:48 PM Hopeful wrote:
Why don''t you ask someone at UAL how many jobs it gave away. 5000-6000 mechanics eliminated to date.
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On 7/15/2003 2:52:48 PM Hopeful wrote:
Why don''t you ask someone at UAL how many jobs it gave away. 5000-6000 mechanics eliminated to date.
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Well how many has the TWU given away over the years? What about when mechanics lost pushbacks, the creation of OSMs, loss of deicing etc? The loss of A&P jobs at AA has been hidden by the growth of the airline but the loss of all this work lessens the demand for A&Ps which is the driving force for the wage rate of our class & craft. What we need to compare is the number of A&P mechanics per aircraft each airline has.
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On 7/16/2003 8
11 PM Bob Owens wrote:
Well how many has the TWU given away over the years? What about when mechanics lost pushbacks, the creation of OSMs, loss of deicing etc? The loss of A&P jobs at AA has been hidden by the growth of the airline but the loss of all this work lessens the demand for A&Ps which is the driving force for the wage rate of our class & craft. What we need to compare is the number of A&P mechanics per aircraft each airline has.
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Bob or "Curly"...(since Dave and Buck are MO and Larry, you must be Curly!)It''s nice to see you show your true colors. You, true to form, are very concerned about the line station maintenance but could give a crap about the maintenance bases! That''s why it''s okay for you to be an AMFA puppet. Unlike AMFA the TWU fights to save every job, not farm them out at a 79% clip at Alaska and a 45% clip at Northwest (of course that was in 2002, before they farmed out the most recent 5 heavy checks). I do believe that the line guys have some very valid concerns, but farming out jobs in order to save your own skin is a bunch of crap. Where do you draw the "layoff" line, just below your name?On 7/16/2003 8
11 PM Bob Owens wrote: ----------------
On 7/15/2003 2:52:48 PM Hopeful wrote:
Why don''t you ask someone at UAL how many jobs it gave away. 5000-6000 mechanics eliminated to date.
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On 7/15/2003 2:52:48 PM Hopeful wrote:
Why don''t you ask someone at UAL how many jobs it gave away. 5000-6000 mechanics eliminated to date.
----------------
Well how many has the TWU given away over the years? What about when mechanics lost pushbacks, the creation of OSMs, loss of deicing etc? The loss of A&P jobs at AA has been hidden by the growth of the airline but the loss of all this work lessens the demand for A&Ps which is the driving force for the wage rate of our class & craft. What we need to compare is the number of A&P mechanics per aircraft each airline has.
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