Phantom Fixer
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- Oct 21, 2003
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hmmm....parasitic blood sucking kinda fits the executive MO better than anything else I've seen of late.L1011Ret said:
Me Too And You Too
- Thread starter Tim Nelson
- Start date
ManDachine
Member
- Feb 4, 2004
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Tim,
with regards to the "millions in perks", are you talking about the money some of us collected in unemployment?
with regards to the "millions in perks", are you talking about the money some of us collected in unemployment?
ClueByFour
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- Aug 20, 2002
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Why? To remove him?Atlantic said:
OP
Tim Nelson
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- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #21
OK, after all the personal attacks
In relation to other contracts on the property there are certain contractual benefit things 'perks' the pilots have [talking benefits as opposed to wages] that others on the property only dream of having. My point here isn't to flush this out, that's possibly for another time. And I am not at all saying that a pilot should or should not deserve them. The point is that if ALPA demands 'you too's' then the lack of 'me too's' must be unpacked. It is only reasonable and fair.
In relation to other contracts on the property there are certain contractual benefit things 'perks' the pilots have [talking benefits as opposed to wages] that others on the property only dream of having. My point here isn't to flush this out, that's possibly for another time. And I am not at all saying that a pilot should or should not deserve them. The point is that if ALPA demands 'you too's' then the lack of 'me too's' must be unpacked. It is only reasonable and fair.
OP
Tim Nelson
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As a side, 700UW says
"I am very shocked and surprised that a interim directer of the agw, would take a very anti-trade unionist position. Trade unionism is about supporting all labor, not just one group"
To be sure, 700UW does not support 'all labor'..just AFLCIO labor. Further, it does not mean that I do not support Pilots, rather I do not believe it is in the best interest of other union groups if ALPA stands behind management with a new contract containing a 'you too' while management demands that other groups take cuts also. For sure it will be in the best interest of Pilots but not the other groups.
At any rate, it is natural for differences to happen if one group conditions its contract that management dig its hands into another union's pocket. If or when ALPA settles a new contract, having a 'you too' clause will put union pressure on the IAM. Pressure from Management is one thing but pressure from another union is reason to weigh everything.
"I am very shocked and surprised that a interim directer of the agw, would take a very anti-trade unionist position. Trade unionism is about supporting all labor, not just one group"
To be sure, 700UW does not support 'all labor'..just AFLCIO labor. Further, it does not mean that I do not support Pilots, rather I do not believe it is in the best interest of other union groups if ALPA stands behind management with a new contract containing a 'you too' while management demands that other groups take cuts also. For sure it will be in the best interest of Pilots but not the other groups.
At any rate, it is natural for differences to happen if one group conditions its contract that management dig its hands into another union's pocket. If or when ALPA settles a new contract, having a 'you too' clause will put union pressure on the IAM. Pressure from Management is one thing but pressure from another union is reason to weigh everything.
BoeingBoy
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- Nov 9, 2003
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Tim,
As a pilot, I'm still a little confused as to the "millions of dollars" of benefits we have that others don't - unless you're talking about retirement (or what's left) and that would depend on which other employee group you're talking about. I certainly hope I'm not paying less for medical, etc.
In some ways, our benefits are less than other groups, though I'll agree maybe not in dollar terms. An example of that would be vacation - each day of vacation pays less than a day of work - for most employees it is the same. However, since my hourly pay rate is higher, that day of vacation pays more dollars than most other employees.
I will give you this - over on the ALPA board there are some expressing the sentiment you speak of, the "Not one dime unless every other group gives". There are also some that have a single group in mind - you folks in the IAM are the favority targets there. Whether they represent the majority or not, I don't know. I do know that if I were in another group, I would expect my representatives to negotiate the best deal possible irregardless of what ALPA said or did.
My personal feelings have been expressed before. If any group gives proportionly less (considering income levels, etc) good for them - they had better negotiators than I did.
Jim
As a pilot, I'm still a little confused as to the "millions of dollars" of benefits we have that others don't - unless you're talking about retirement (or what's left) and that would depend on which other employee group you're talking about. I certainly hope I'm not paying less for medical, etc.
In some ways, our benefits are less than other groups, though I'll agree maybe not in dollar terms. An example of that would be vacation - each day of vacation pays less than a day of work - for most employees it is the same. However, since my hourly pay rate is higher, that day of vacation pays more dollars than most other employees.
I will give you this - over on the ALPA board there are some expressing the sentiment you speak of, the "Not one dime unless every other group gives". There are also some that have a single group in mind - you folks in the IAM are the favority targets there. Whether they represent the majority or not, I don't know. I do know that if I were in another group, I would expect my representatives to negotiate the best deal possible irregardless of what ALPA said or did.
My personal feelings have been expressed before. If any group gives proportionly less (considering income levels, etc) good for them - they had better negotiators than I did.
Jim
Hi Tim,Tim Nelson said:
Do us all a favor and post specific examples of the "perks". Otherwise your post is nothing but a windup for any pilots reading this thread. Keep in mind that the pilots are the only group to lose their defined benefit retirement under our current regime. I want you to post the perks in the pilot contract that are worth millions and not included in other cba's.
colorado_cowboy
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- Dec 20, 2003
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Im probably going to catch allot of heat for this but I have to admit that Tim has a good point.
If ALPA wants to give more to in terms of concessions than they should do so knowing there's a good possibility they'll be the only union on the property willing to give into Dave's demands.
As far as the pilots still making millions... sorry Tim your on your own on with that one.
PropPiedmont,
You gave away our TOP SECRET. I am now compelled to report you to ALPA professional ethics committee. Thank goodness you didn't tell them about the extra fuel burn required to carry the extra weight from eating those nourishing pretzel crew meals.
You gave away our TOP SECRET. I am now compelled to report you to ALPA professional ethics committee. Thank goodness you didn't tell them about the extra fuel burn required to carry the extra weight from eating those nourishing pretzel crew meals.
OP
Tim Nelson
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- #29
Long Term Disability in the Pilot contract is but one example of a perk that pilots get. Certainly pilots don't see this as a perk but a fleet service person might since it isn't included in the fleet service contract. I mean, why should a fleet service person who doesn't have LTD in the fleet service contract be asked to give more while the company has enough Cabbage to dish out up to $7,500 a month to a pilot who isn't even working?
Clearly all groups have taken cuts but one can't conclude that all groups have been treated equal.
The point isn't that a pilot doesn't deserve it, I for one beleive they do. The point is not to demand that other union brothers and sisters participate in a 'you too' without a 'me too'. It's inequitable.
As a side, this is probably all a moot point anyways since it is very unlikely that fleet service is inclined to volunteer anymore givebacks. And it doesn't look like it is happening AT ALL with mechanics, regardless of what the IAM tells them. One wrong move by the IAM and they are gone for the Mechanic union [amfa], if there is still an airline.
Regards,
Clearly all groups have taken cuts but one can't conclude that all groups have been treated equal.
The point isn't that a pilot doesn't deserve it, I for one beleive they do. The point is not to demand that other union brothers and sisters participate in a 'you too' without a 'me too'. It's inequitable.
As a side, this is probably all a moot point anyways since it is very unlikely that fleet service is inclined to volunteer anymore givebacks. And it doesn't look like it is happening AT ALL with mechanics, regardless of what the IAM tells them. One wrong move by the IAM and they are gone for the Mechanic union [amfa], if there is still an airline.
Regards,
